New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[GAMS1]

Hi,

yes cast = illogical.

No one will ever cast a pin... Badge maker will bought from a pin maker.

Again this is like the UFO cases (see below the Petit-Rochain hoax), more "testimonies" will arrive to "prove" that the badges are real... even if physically the badges are confirmed as faked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_UFO_wave

The main problem is that most of the collectors, including me of course, don't know nothing about how to produce a badge/award. We have our own belief about that.

See You

Vince

Do you really think you had german style pins available on the french Market between 1940 and 1944 ?
Made for what ? French badges ? French Medals ?
So why not simply produce them in the same way : cast ...
If you compare old collectors with knowledges and still with passion with UFO's , it's no longer a Gentlemen discussion , it's the Circus and not encouraging to continue collecting and discussing about our common Hobby ...
Nick

[Norm F]

For this RSS badge to sell a badge that you consider to be a copy, maybe you're wrong it's possible, but that does not make it a copy seller.

Hi Chris,

This is getting off topic, but no there's no doubt about the RS&S fake Fleet badge from Royal Dragons (here seen next to an original). It's a well-established old fake that is part of a series cast of cartridge brass (not Tombak or zinc) and interestingly sometimes appear in a series of consistent fake paper packets as well. There are many threads on these old fakes.

But like you say, even the best of well-intentioned dealers sometimes make mistakes of this sort.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

And i'm sorry "unerwünscht" means "not recommanded", not "forbidden" !
"Forbidden" would be "Verboten" or "Ausgeschlossen" ...
German is a precise language , no "interpretations"needed when you do have the right words for that ?
I've got enough native germans around me to confirm that,
not only in the Militaria branch

It seems to me that you are not reading other people's posts, but you rather hammer in one point again and again. It might very well be that you have enough native Germans around and even the ones around me would confirm that "unerwünscht" cannot be translated as "prohibited". But that is not the point and I tried (in vain) to explain it to you. You don't understand the system and that is fine with me. So insist on it and move on!
However, if your case rests on the semantic investigation and literal translation of parts of a German text (you still ignore the end of text!), then you have a very, very weak case. Reminds me of all the post-war Knights Crosses found with awardees that were never mentioned in any record. Oh, all these poor forgotten people getting their award late on May 7th 1945! There were all an exception to the otherwise perfectly adherenced rule......

[Chet Sowersby]

To those who still want to believe this is of original wartime manufacture, how does one explain the fake shear marks on a cast badge? There is no reason what so ever for them to exist.

Chet

[Norm F]

In 1983 an employee working at the Ministry of the Navy in Paris rue de Rivoli at the corner of the Rue Royale contacted a Parisian collector to let him know that many insignia, German uniforms were stored in the premises and that the owners wanted to get rid of it. I personally went there. The stock was colossal. Thousands of cases with insignia, all of which were Bacqueville insignia, no German manufacture, trimmings, marinière and objects of the KM per thousand. These premises had been occupied by the KM from 1940 to 44 and these objects had never been moved since the end of the war.

Have a good day

Mat."

To better visualize, here is the site of the "Hôtel de la Marine", the former French naval ministry from 1789 to 2015, currently under renovation at the north-east corner of Rue Royale and Place de la Concorde. This is the location from which stem all the anecdotes of enormous stashes of cast French-made badges and insignia.

Unfortunately, none of these first-hand accounts go back further than 1983, although second and the third-hand accounts like the one of Jean-Claude Kerviche via René Johnson and Bertrand Malvaux claim to back further to the 1940s.

I can understand how someone who says he saw them with his own eyes in the 1970 or even the 1980s may be frustrated by the skepticism, but eye-witness accounts 25 years after the end of the war just don't hold up as a valid and unbroken line of provenance. Any reputable art dealer would agree.

And those who stick steadfastly to the belief of Bacqueville as the maker, with absolutely zero evidence presented so far to support this, must explain why such a reputable factory dating back to 1790 with their resources spared from destruction would produce such coarse castings, other than perhaps as a passive-aggressive insult to their occupiers.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

To those who still want to believe this is of original wartime manufacture, how does one explain the fake shear marks on a cast badge? There is no reason what so ever for them to exist.

Chet

Indeed, a good and unanswered question.

Best regards,
---Norm

(U-Boat above and S-Boat below)

[BubbaZ]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting Mat's testimony -- it sounds like he would favour option 2 in the poll. Unfortunately, it's more of the same sort of 1980's onwards anecdotes that we continually hear. By any standard "thousands of cases of Bacqueville insignia" sounds like hyperbolic rhetoric. You would need a warehouse the size of the digitally created one at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

I'm not saying Mat isn't sincere or truthful, but he is as prone to error or influence as any of us, and as a case in point, sold a fake R.S.&S. Fleet badge on his website: http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ssier-559.html
Whether the badges in question are unofficial rejected wartime stock poorly made in the thousands or a post-war hoax, we can all make mistakes in our interpretation of the anecdotes.

Best regards,
---Norm

Well, out of 12 KM badges offered by Royal Dragons 6 are of 'French-made' type... all sorts of them except of the minesweeper
I personally do not believe in stories, especially unconfirmed dealer stories.

I consider all 'French-made' badges to be early postwar repros made for souvenir market and will continue to think so untill first evidence pops up to support their wartime origin, which is very less likely IMO. If there was a single piece of proof in favor of these badges we would know it already.
Cheers,
Hubert

[GAMS1]

It seems to me that you are not reading other people's posts, but you rather hammer in one point again and again. It might very well be that you have enough native Germans around and even the ones around me would confirm that "unerwünscht" cannot be translated as "prohibited". But that is not the point and I tried (in vain) to explain it to you. You don't understand the system and that is fine with me. So insist on it and move on!
However, if your case rests on the semantic investigation and literal translation of parts of a German text (you still ignore the end of text!), then you have a very, very weak case. Reminds me of all the post-war Knights Crosses found with awardees that were never mentioned in any record. Oh, all these poor forgotten people getting their award late on May 7th 1945! There were all an exception to the otherwise perfectly adherenced rule......

Very simple ...i've been reading most if not all the posts on the subject .
The interpretation of this "document" is one of the main point of interest to dismiss these french made badges ?
So i think it's very important to discuss this particular point ?
If you don't agree with me , why not ? we are here to discuss about a point of history and trying to sort out this particular subject ?
RK stories : sorry i have no interest for RK stories and you are right , nice stories
do exist in this field . As in many fields of our hobby ...
Nick

[Dietrich Maerz]

Why should I agree with you when you are completely wrong in your “interpretation”of the meaning of this particular decree by Dr. Doehle? So stay with it and be happy!
Now I repeat this one really, really good question: why would somebody put fake shearing lines on a cast badge? (I think I know the answer ....)

[GAMS1]

Why should I agree with you when you are completely wrong in your “interpretation”of the meaning of this particular decree by Dr. Doehle? So stay with it and be happy!
Now I repeat this one really, really good question: why would somebody put fake shearing lines on a cast badge? (I think I know the answer ....)

I was not talking about "my" interpretation of this document but on one of the main
argument to dismiss these badges ...
I'm a relatively happy man most of the time , no problem !
Please give us the final answer for these "shearing lines"on these cast badges !
It will be the kiss of the death , i'm sure !
Nick

[Dietrich Maerz]

The kiss of death, as you call it, was already delivered several years ago. You can read it in The Kriegsmarine Awards (2011, Vol. II). As John pointed out already, the case was pretty solid back then and now it is even stronger with the video from Jo.

For me that was all running with full force through open doors. My only "concern" is to give my opinion about your completely wrong "interpretation" of a German text.
Maybe another example of the German language and its interpretation will help you to understand: If Hitler said that it was for him "unerwünscht" (undesireable) that people smoke in his presence, would you have pulled out a cigar and argue with Adolf that he did not prohibit you to smoke and that all is fine and dandy?
Got it?

[Frank K]

To me unerwünscht is the polite version of verboten but never mind.

Have never liked the French badges and would never buy or own them

[Mike Tucker]

French Navy Badges

Thank you Jo Rivet!!!

[billbert]

Throw my TWO CENTS into the French badge fray..
A coworker of mines father was US Army tanker
Priest mobile howitzer wounded D +4..
After recuperation he guarded processed prisoners
On the Channel Islands for a period..
Amongst the couple souvenirs I was given by him
A French made e boat badge missing the pin..taken from prisoner...
Hope This Helps
Billbert

[Norm F]

Throw my TWO CENTS into the French badge fray..
A coworker of mines father was US Army tanker
Priest mobile howitzer wounded D +4..
After recuperation he guarded processed prisoners
On the Channel Islands for a period..
Amongst the couple souvenirs I was given by him
A French made e boat badge missing the pin..taken from prisoner...
Hope This Helps
Billbert

Hi Bilbert,

Were you given these by the father or the son, and in what year?

Best regards,
—-Norm