New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[GAMS1]

By the way i forgot : the präsidential Kanzlei said "unerwünscht" ( not welcome ) and not "verboten" ( forbidden ) !
Which makes for me a big difference .
Bear in mind the KM ordered many many things to the french industry in the uniforms,buttons,badges in cloth or metal ...area but not only and of course
not only the KM ?
Mint stocks of them were even found after the war in France and Germany ?
But like the french made badges , were not of the best quality and not that welcome among the french collectors regarding this .
Nick

[Ben421]

Hi,

In 2016, i went to the former reserve of the french navy museum which were as this moment in the move for a new site near le Bourget airport in the north of Paris.

I was there for work to see the former reserve in an old fort built in the late 19th century of what we call the parisian belt.

Almost all the objects had already been taken to the new buiding but I saw with my own eyes two big boxes containing Kriegsmarine artefacts. It was mostly buttons, breast eagles, etc... and unfortunately I couldn't really look into the boxes but the person of the museum who was with me told me that it was from the navy ministry place de la Concorde in Paris which was occupied by the Kriegsmarine. And also that these items were not registered and no museum curator wants to hear about it...
I honestly can't say if there was War badges in the boxes, but if there are, it's not related to René Johnson. Maybe I will know more soon.

All I can say is that a hoard do exist because I saw it.

Benjamin

[upbeek]

So for all of the "non believers" , a cast badge is automatically a repro ?
Are you not confusing with the locally lead cast repro badges made
already in the 60's-70's ?
I'm not a scientist but sorry , cast badges do exist during the war and before , locally made or on a semi industrial base ?
I found the " Apple to Apple" words interesting as everybody is thinking to German made badges in this story and their nice (until late war ) quality , but these were made in the occupied France ? With a terrible lack of almost everything , people wearing wood soles shoes for example ?
So many testimonies in France of these badges appearing long before the 70's and not especially sold to make "big money" by previous owners ?
Nick

Nick
It’s all over these badges they are exposed the curtain is pulled back!
Yes there is cast original badges! But these so called French made types are complete FAKES the reason is because the pins hardware is also cast and Fake die trimming added to make them more believable! Only a Faker would carry off like this and so there is no debatable facts left it’s all over!
Looking at the new poll I can’t believe a few have given a honest opinion that they truely believe these are original i can’t imagine why.
Kind regards Chay

[Norm F]

Looking at the new poll I can’t believe a few have given a honest opinion that they truely believe these are original i can’t imagine why.
Kind regards Chay

Chay, I appreciate your enthusiasm and please don’t take this wrong, but the goal of the poll is to seek an accurate sampling of the opinions of the readership, not to force our opinions upon others with hyperbole.

It’s best to just make one’s case (which you’ve done) and then leave it at that.

Like it or not, science and belief, as in religion and life, coexist in this hobby.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Dietrich Maerz]

By the way i forgot : the präsidential Kanzlei said "unerwünscht" ( not welcome ) and not "verboten" ( forbidden ) !
Which makes for me a big difference.

It is in general very difficult to argue about the finer meanings of any language with somebody who is not in tune with it. This is a good example and I can understand that it makes a "big difference" to you. However, it isn't.
Let's put it this way: If the sole and only decider on matters of orders and medals says something is "unerwünscht" (undesireable) he certainly means prohibited. Furthermore, you have to read the whole text and at the end he is extremly clear.
This texy leaves no wickle room, at least not for a German.

[Norm F]

Bear in mind the KM ordered many many things to the french industry in the uniforms,buttons,badges in cloth or metal ...area but not only and of course
not only the KM ?
Mint stocks of them were even found after the war in France and Germany ?

Nick

Hi Nick,

The point has been made, but it’s worth repeating, that there’s a world of difference between uniform insignia, a more or less self-regulated industry, and awards, for which the Präsidialkanzlei set up strict government control.

Can you please clarify what you mean about “mint stocks of them found after the war in Germany”? That was certainly not the case for any French-made awards so I assume you’re speaking of French-made insignia, but could you please give specifics on that as well?

Best regards,
—-Norm

[upbeek]

Hi Norm,
Indeed I was merely replying to Nicks quote!
I did have a look through the long winded thread on the subject but not really commented on it but now I have made up my mind.
Also I might add again that my collecting interests have changed and I have been involved in British and Colonial cap badges which are equally as difficult to get right!
Kind regards Chay

[jmcm]

Almost bought a set of these at the SOS, glad I did not pull the trigger and when I came home I saw this thread.

[TOULON44]

Hi

Following the comments made on the French traders of Bacqueville badges, I contacted them and here is the answer of the owner of the store "Royal Dragon"

"Hi Chris.
Concerning the testimonials of Bacqueville insignia I can send you two that are personally attached to me.

1-In 1983 an employee working at the Ministry of the Navy in Paris rue de Rivoli at the corner of the Rue Royale contacted a Parisian collector to let him know that many insignia, German uniforms were stored in the premises and that the owners wanted to get rid of it. I personally went there. The stock was colossal. Thousands of cases with insignia, all of which were Bacqueville insignia, no German manufacture, trimmings, marinière and objects of the KM per thousand. These premises had been occupied by the KM from 1940 to 44 and these objects had never been moved since the end of the war.

At the time the KM was worthless. The occupants of the premises had trouble separating themselves from the objects. Of memory Optas store, street of Rome had taken many badges as well as Parisian merchants who had to recover at least 500 badges . One had recovered at least 2000 shoes with bridge in cloth and leather! !!!!

2- In the 1990s a heir to a large industrial clothing cleaning company located in Le Havre contacted my father about a very large lot of KM equipment. We moved. There were cubic meters of marinière, shoes, badges ... Including bacqueville badges (about 500) boxed and wrapped in cellophane paper. There were only bacqueville in this lot. Not a badge of German manufacture !!!

At the time and given the very low value of these objects (yet in 1990 !!!) we exchanged this big jackpot against two pistol 1873 french !!!

I had a hard time separating myself from this jackpot yet sold at the time at a ridiculous price.

I can assure you that the Bacqueville are of 2nd war origin; it's sure and certain .

In my opinion these late insignias made in France (late 43 early 44) have almost never been distributed.

I have already studied the problem of these badges. I have never found it in German families, nor as parts of the field.

Have a good day

Mat."

For Bertrand Malvaux I had this morning, he reserves the right to reply.

Regards
Chris

[Norm F]

1-In 1983 an employee working at the Ministry of the Navy in Paris rue de Rivoli at the corner of the Rue Royale contacted a Parisian collector to let him know that many insignia, German uniforms were stored in the premises and that the owners wanted to get rid of it. I personally went there. The stock was colossal. Thousands of cases with insignia, all of which were Bacqueville insignia, no German manufacture, trimmings, marinière and objects of the KM per thousand. These premises had been occupied by the KM from 1940 to 44 and these objects had never been moved since the end of the war.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting Mat's testimony -- it sounds like he would favour option 2 in the poll. Unfortunately, it's more of the same sort of 1980's onwards anecdotes that we continually hear. By any standard "thousands of cases of Bacqueville insignia" sounds like hyperbolic rhetoric. You would need a warehouse the size of the digitally created one at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

I'm not saying Mat isn't sincere or truthful, but he is as prone to error or influence as any of us, and as a case in point, sold a fake R.S.&S. Fleet badge on his website: http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ssier-559.html
Whether the badges in question are unofficial rejected wartime stock poorly made in the thousands or a post-war hoax, we can all make mistakes in our interpretation of the anecdotes.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

casted pin = EPIC FAIL !

Case closed............................................ .....................

See You

Vince

[GAMS1]

Nick
It’s all over these badges they are exposed the curtain is pulled back!
Yes there is cast original badges! But these so called French made types are complete FAKES the reason is because the pins hardware is also cast and Fake die trimming added to make them more believable! Only a Faker would carry off like this and so there is no debatable facts left it’s all over!
Looking at the new poll I can’t believe a few have given a honest opinion that they truely believe these are original i can’t imagine why.
Kind regards Chay

So i repeat my question : cast is automatically a repro ? why ? we are not talking
about nice quality german made badges which would have been badly reproduced ? like in the 70's for example ...
we are talking about completely cast made badges of a lower quality which has been always been sold in France with lower prices than german made ones regarding the lower quality ?
Which facts are you talking about actually ? Have you been in France at that time knowing most of the old collectors which had absolutely no doubts on them ?
Because of the numerous Testimonies all over France , found locally long before the 80's and not only bought on the Militaria Market ?
I don't have interest in this story because i don't collect KM badges so far , but reading only rumours or looking at so called technical experiences doesn't satisfy me on the collector side !
Nick

[TOULON44]

Hi Norm,
I do not think that buying stocks of materials to the point of having trouble selling them because the Kriegsmarine was very little collected at the time, is a rhetoric that goes around in circles, it's an expensive rhetoric. For this RSS badge to sell a badge that you consider to be a copy, maybe you're wrong it's possible, but that does not make it a copy seller. As for "interpreting" anecdotes, we do not interpret anything at all, they are situations experienced not interpreted.
Regards
Chris

[GAMS1]

Hi Nick,

The point has been made, but it’s worth repeating, that there’s a world of difference between uniform insignia, a more or less self-regulated industry, and awards, for which the Präsidialkanzlei set up strict government control.

Can you please clarify what you mean about “mint stocks of them found after the war in Germany”? That was certainly not the case for any French-made awards so I assume you’re speaking of French-made insignia, but could you please give specifics on that as well?

Best regards,
—-Norm

Regarding the mint stocks found in Germany , i was not talking about those badges but about uniforms or spare parts like buttons or breast eagles , i was able to find also in the ex-occupied countries like CS or Poland ...the logistic chain !
If you think that the Kanzlei Instructions were immediately followed by 100% , we should not discuss anymore on so many subjects ?
And i'm sorry "unerwünscht" means "not recommanded", not "forbidden" !
"Forbidden" would be "Verboten" or "Ausgeschlossen" ...
German is a precise language , no "interpretations"needed when you do have the right words for that ?
I've got enough native germans around me to confirm that,
not only in the Militaria branch
Like A.H. saying he doesn't want foreign volunteers ( Ost mainly ) bearing the german eagle on their uniforms ? what was the result ?
If these badges were accepted and worn ? this is the question ?
But so many were found not only in Paris but on the main german bases in France ?
Worth repeating ? i think so as dismissing so easily a part of the french+german history with a so called "technical expertise" stating they are made in a bad cast quality , which everybody knew ?
But sorry , cast doesn't mean repro automatically !
Nick

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

yes cast = illogical.

No one will ever cast a pin... Badge maker will bought from a pin maker.

Again this is like the UFO cases (see below the Petit-Rochain hoax), more "testimonies" will arrive to "prove" that the badges are real... even if physically the badges are confirmed as faked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_UFO_wave

The main problem is that most of the collectors, including me of course, don't know nothing about how to produce a badge/award. We have our own belief about that.

See You

Vince