Hitler's Iron Cross

[streptile]

My understanding is that many soldiers were awarded the EK2 to boost morale. This was not so for the EK1, which retained a lot of status. Despite his many shortcomings and obvious moral deficiencies, Hitler was a brave soldier by all creditable accounts.

[Joe Mc]

My understanding is that many soldiers were awarded the EK2 to boost morale. This was not so for the EK1, which retained a lot of status. Despite his many shortcomings and obvious moral deficiencies, Hitler was a brave soldier by all creditable accounts.

I totally agree with that. The EK1 was very much considered an "Officers" award in WWI.

I think the story that he was given it as a "prize" for getting a message through is either very exeggerated or totally fabricated.

[Kraal]

I have read many versions of how Hitler got his EK's. HArd to know which one to believe.

However, if Hitler won his EK1 in such a dubious way, then why would he be so proud of it? doesnt fit in with Hitlers way of doing things really.

I cant imagine a troop leader dangling the prospect of an EK1 in such a manner as descirbed as above. Its the army, not scouts! My belief is that in WW1 especially, the EK1 took something more than just duty to be earnt.

Did "many" soldiers get the EK just to keep up morale in WW1? Thats not my understanding.

I guess as with all things to do with Hitler the objective truth lurks in there somewhere but is generally lost amongst peoples emotive opinions and political agendas.

Sure, the EK2 became more and more a common morale boost award. Hitlers EK1 was earned on the way of simple duty as I described below.

Here is the proof (if you are able to understand german)
http://www.rijo.homepage.t-online.de...JU_gutmann.pdf

Hitler had great great luck on winning his EK1. A fact that he always tried to compensate, as well as the other nazis did, transforming his IC1st class winning into fairytales about capturing 15 franceman on his own, but that was what they wrote into the schoolbooks.. and who could speak against him? As a jew his leutnant Hugo Gutman had to leave germany, as well, he never tried to make a big story out of Hitlers IC earning. And his old comrades were nazis as well.. When Hitler was a small guy no one was interested in him. As he became bigger, no one dared to piss on his boots, anyhow, no one would have believed such a person anyway, a Nobody vs. Hitler..



If you want to make Hitler a brave soldier, just do it. It´s up to you what you want to believe.

[byterock]

Just a complete aside.

One of the more interesting additions I have encountered in the AH ICI myth was the Canadian made TV movie a few year back.

A youthful AH when hearing he will not be getting the ICI from Hugo Gutman
basicalys tries to emotionally blackmail him by saying somethilg like

'I have always tried to defend you people when other spoke against the Jews'


Something when I though about it was really the sort of thing AH would of done!

The real truth of the matter is lost to time. Most historians agree that the Nazi side made him out to be a big hero. While the other side made him out to be a coward.

The truth is most likely this.

The medal was simply handed out to the 'longest' surviving members of the regiment (it happen in other units) which was AH. Nothing disgraceful in that but perhaps a little embarrassing.

Anyone in the Canadian Military who got the Canada 125 medal for being the shortest or longest serving member of a unit will understand this feeling

[andrewb]

Hitler's GPB is number 1.

Thank you Erich. I stand corrected.
It was his DAP badge, so I've been told, that was number 3.

Regards,
AB.

[streptile]

The truth is most likely this.
The medal was simply handed out to the 'longest' surviving members of the regiment (it happen in other units) which was AH. Nothing disgraceful in that but perhaps a little embarrassing.

I don't think we have to speculate too much, nor do I think too much is lost to time. As I said before, creditable and dispassionate historians have all pretty much agreed that Adolf Hitler was a brave, if unexceptional, soldier. These include British historian Allan Bullock, who wrote Hitler's first widely read scholarly biography in English; Joachim Fest, who wrote the first great German biography; Ian Kershaw, whose most recent series stands as the now-definitive life based on primary sources; and even Gordon Craig.

If you want to make Hitler a brave soldier, just do it. It´s up to you what you want to believe.

This is a fairly snide statement. Believing the truth to be true is not a political act, as you seem to imply.

[LAH]

Sure, the EK2 became more and more a common morale boost award. Hitlers EK1 was earned on the way of simple duty as I described below.

Here is the proof (if you are able to understand german)
http://www.rijo.homepage.t-online.de...JU_gutmann.pdf

Hitler had great great luck on winning his EK1. A fact that he always tried to compensate, as well as the other nazis did, transforming his IC1st class winning into fairytales about capturing 15 franceman on his own, but that was what they wrote into the schoolbooks.. and who could speak against him? As a jew his leutnant Hugo Gutman had to leave germany, as well, he never tried to make a big story out of Hitlers IC earning. And his old comrades were nazis as well.. When Hitler was a small guy no one was interested in him. As he became bigger, no one dared to piss on his boots, anyhow, no one would have believed such a person anyway, a Nobody vs. Hitler..



If you want to make Hitler a brave soldier, just do it. It´s up to you what you want to believe.

I would suggest that memebr Kraal has other motives in his reply's to this line of thought.

Mark

[Ischak]

Sure, the EK2 became more and more a common morale boost award. Hitlers EK1 was earned on the way of simple duty as I described below.

Here is the proof (if you are able to understand german)
http://www.rijo.homepage.t-online.de...JU_gutmann.pdf

Hitler had great great luck on winning his EK1. A fact that he always tried to compensate, as well as the other nazis did, transforming his IC1st class winning into fairytales about capturing 15 franceman on his own, but that was what they wrote into the schoolbooks.. and who could speak against him? As a jew his leutnant Hugo Gutman had to leave germany, as well, he never tried to make a big story out of Hitlers IC earning. And his old comrades were nazis as well.. When Hitler was a small guy no one was interested in him. As he became bigger, no one dared to piss on his boots, anyhow, no one would have believed such a person anyway, a Nobody vs. Hitler..



If you want to make Hitler a brave soldier, just do it. It´s up to you what you want to believe.

I think you are just anti-hitler guy. He earned EK I class no matter for what. It is cool anyway

[Kraal]

I think you are just anti-hitler guy. He earned EK I class no matter for what. It is cool anyway

No. I just always hated suckers that earned fame for luck, not for their achievements.

In my thought of view there had been many awardings that shouldn´t have happend. Just to be fair to those soldiers, who didn´t win a medal either or to those, who earned the medal through skill.

You can put a KC around your neck. Do you own it? Yeah. Did you earn it? No.

[LAH]

Although this is not really the place for this kind of info, but just to balance out Kraals statement:

"Hitler, much as we would like him to have been a coward and a shirker, was in fact a very good soldier. He remained calm under fire, showed respect to his superiors and never questioned his orders. Whilst casualties mounted and morale fell away, Hitler unstintingly carried on with his duty. He was rewarded with a promotion to Lance Corporal.
As the fighting continued the List regiment was used in a number of assaults just to the south of Ypres. Facing the French this time, the Germans received yet another mauling. Hitler earned an Iron Cross 2nd Class in an engagement near Croonaert Wood, Wytschaete. During the fighting and under heavy fire, Hitler, now appointed Meldeganger (a dispatch runner), stumbled across a seriously wounded officer left out in the open.

Along with a friend, he managed to pull the wounded man back to safety. Hitler received his award in December 1914. The action at the First Ypres decimated his regiment. Hitler wrote to his Munich landlord reporting that only 600 men were left out of approximately 3500. Colonel List was among the fatalities.

On 4 August 1918, with the Germans in the last throes of their grand offensive, Hitler received an Iron Cross 1st Class for, 'personal bravery and general merit.' He had single handily captured a group of Frenchmen huddled in a shell hole. Cunningly, Hitler had crawled to the lip of their impromptu shelter and then shouted out to the men that they were surrounded and had better surrender. Duped by his ruse, the Frenchmen came along without a fight.

The Iron Cross First Class gave Hitler the reward, recognition and the status that he had been craving for. The prize was rare for officers - but rarer still for non-commissioned ranks. It was official recognition of his bravery and honour"

The above quote is from www.firstworldwar.com

In direct response to Kraals statment about luck, I would imagine that luck played a part in Hitler surviving 4+years in the trenches as it no doubt would in any soldiers war time career

Mark

[Kraal]

Although this is not really the place for this kind of info, but just to balance out Kraals statement:

"Hitler, much as we would like him to have been a coward and a shirker, was in fact a very good soldier. He remained calm under fire, showed respect to his superiors and never questioned his orders. Whilst casualties mounted and morale fell away, Hitler unstintingly carried on with his duty. He was rewarded with a promotion to Lance Corporal.
As the fighting continued the List regiment was used in a number of assaults just to the south of Ypres. Facing the French this time, the Germans received yet another mauling. Hitler earned an Iron Cross 2nd Class in an engagement near Croonaert Wood, Wytschaete. During the fighting and under heavy fire, Hitler, now appointed Meldeganger (a dispatch runner), stumbled across a seriously wounded officer left out in the open.

Along with a friend, he managed to pull the wounded man back to safety. Hitler received his award in December 1914. The action at the First Ypres decimated his regiment. Hitler wrote to his Munich landlord reporting that only 600 men were left out of approximately 3500. Colonel List was among the fatalities.

On 4 August 1918, with the Germans in the last throes of their grand offensive, Hitler received an Iron Cross 1st Class for, 'personal bravery and general merit.' He had single handily captured a group of Frenchmen huddled in a shell hole. Cunningly, Hitler had crawled to the lip of their impromptu shelter and then shouted out to the men that they were surrounded and had better surrender. Duped by his ruse, the Frenchmen came along without a fight.

The Iron Cross First Class gave Hitler the reward, recognition and the status that he had been craving for. The prize was rare for officers - but rarer still for non-commissioned ranks. It was official recognition of his bravery and honour"

The above quote is from www.firstworldwar.com

In direct response to Kraals statment about luck, I would imagine that luck played a part in Hitler surviving 4+years in the trenches as it no doubt would in any soldiers war time career

Mark

Well, actually, that was what they wrote in the schoolbooks.. I guess there is no better ressource than the words and reasons of the man who awarded him with the cross, and that is Hugo Gutman, as I offered below.

In my opinion it´s not even the fact that Hitler gained his 1st Class for nuts which bothers me, it´s the story they wrote around his 1st Class to make him look more heroic. I would have expected more of such a man like Hitler.

[Ischak]

No. I just always hated suckers that earned fame for luck, not for their achievements.

In my thought of view there had been many awardings that shouldn´t have happend. Just to be fair to those soldiers, who didn´t win a medal either or to those, who earned the medal through skill.

You can put a KC around your neck. Do you own it? Yeah. Did you earn it? No.

Did he decorated himself with RK, DKiG ? Why he wore only blood order, EK and wound badge ? Look at Goering or Himmler and others. Field Marshals were decorated with RK mit diamonds cause they led soldiers from bunkers. Hitler led all the Reich and did not get any RK or something.. Think about that. In fact he wore only awards from WW1 and blood order .

[stuart a.]

getting back to the early part of this thread, did anyone manage to get any pics of the ek1 from the collection in norway????

[Kraal]

Did he decorated himself with RK, DKiG ? Why he wore only blood order, EK and wound badge ? Look at Goering or Himmler and others. Field Marshals were decorated with RK mit diamonds cause they led soldiers from bunkers. Hitler led all the Reich and did not get any RK or something.. Think about that. In fact he wore only awards from WW1 and blood order .

Thought about this as well, but came to the following conclusion: As a WW1 fighter he already recieved EK1s as an Obergefreiter, that was a very rare award for those grades. As he did his duty in WW1 and earned 1st Class (as highest decoration possible for corporal) he didn´t have to proof his ability as a soldier in WW2, as he already did in WW1 with EK1 in Obergefreiter-rank as a proof.

In WW2 he always considered himself to be more a politican than a soldier, so no need for awards too. His biggest award was to become the Führer of the Reich.

And, in fact, who should have awarded him? He himself? That would be very shameful. Personally I can just laugh about those persons in German History who awarded themself with orders. Well, Wilhelm II was such a person who needed decorations for his personal happiness, awarding himself. Just think about it- would you put a medal around your own neck in front of the Reich, awarding yourself for the things you have done? Judging your own effords to be good enough for an award? Just to show that you consider yourself to be a VIP with great successes? I guess as the leader of a whole empire the only way to recieve an award honorfull/without a strange feeling is through a public awarding by your people.

Hitler was very proud of his EK1 and wound badge, his BO was more a sign of respect for those other old fighters. Actually he didn´t need to wear the BO as anyone knew him anyway as the #1 of the first fighters of the NSDAP.

[Ischak]

Thought about this as well, but came to the following conclusion: As a WW1 fighter he already recieved EK1s as an Obergefreiter, that was a very rare award for those grades. As he did his duty in WW1 and earned 1st Class (as highest decoration possible for corporal) he didn´t have to proof his ability as a soldier in WW2, as he already did in WW1 with EK1 in Obergefreiter-rank as a proof.

In WW2 he always considered himself to be more a politican than a soldier, so no need for awards too. His biggest award was to become the Führer of the Reich.

And, in fact, who should have awarded him? He himself? That would be very shameful. Personally I can just laugh about those persons in German History who awarded themself with orders. Well, Wilhelm II was such a person who needed decorations for his personal happiness, awarding himself. Just think about it- would you put a medal around your own neck in front of the Reich, awarding yourself for the things you have done? Judging your own effords to be good enough for an award? Just to show that you consider yourself to be a VIP with great successes? I guess as the leader of a whole empire the only way to recieve an award honorfull/without a strange feeling is through a public awarding by your people.

Hitler was very proud of his EK1 and wound badge, his BO was more a sign of respect for those other old fighters. Actually he didn´t need to wear the BO as anyone knew him anyway as the #1 of the first fighters of the NSDAP.

All dictators across the world up to these days decorates themselfes. He did it not. He was interesting speaker, so I think he quite use his skill to get EK I and it was not rare to get EK I on his rank. Nevertheless he received EK II too.

Read this site:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/aslowfuse.htm