Hitler's Iron Cross

[Jon. H]

I don't see that lot. Can you give me the lot number, please?

No problem Trevor, lot number 7268 Auction 59.

Placing a bid?

[streptile]

Placing a bid?

No, but I wanted a closer look, and also to read the German description. In English, as it's written, it suggests rather obliquely that the cross on offer belonged to Adolf Hitler. But it carefully avoids saying so. I wondered if it was any clearer in the original wording. I'm off to look.

I was also just curious because I thought I had combed that auction, but I missed that lot.

[Philipson]

Well, actually, that was what they wrote in the schoolbooks.. I guess there is no better ressource than the words and reasons of the man who awarded him with the cross, and that is Hugo Gutman, as I offered below.

What do we know and what do we think we know?
In the last decade more than one source about Hitler was discredited and lost all meaning. Sources that were quoted in dozens or probably hundreds of books.
So what do we really know? So many stories and desinformation. The nazi press wrote their stories, the allied side wrote theirs and the communist blok added their views and propaganda in the mix.
Since then hundreds of historians, some gifted and others not; and amateurs alike all wrote their thing. Even his driver, his secretary,... all had their say about the big political game of wich they knew what exactly? Office gossip? Tons of nonsense, kept for the centuries to come? Add the strong sentiments contra and even pro this character brings, the effects of that in literature, what a maze one ends up with. And then people are puzzeld at that contradictory and mysterious person Hitler seemed to be.


Kraal, look at the scource you are defending here.
I understand enough german, i think, to read therein that:

1. Gutman did not leave any written account.
2. The account you give was written only in 1961!
3. It was written by a "friend" who did not even new Gutmans first name.

This is the rocksolid source you are defending?
But read my post well, i am also saying the posts made here by others are, if they are known, probably just as doubtfull as your source.

I do know however a few facts;

being a runner, and delivering messages on the western front was one sure way, to get killed fast.

And a second thing: he got 4 bravery awards in total.
1. a regimental diploma
2. Bavarian EKII equivalent: Merenti
3. EKII
4. EKI
Getting 4 awards make a bit unlikely that he was hiding himself for 4 years.

Also; remember he was not a conscript but volunteerd.

[streptile]

It's interesting to me that the listing for that auction scrupulously avoids saying that the cross belonged to Hitler. I'm not sure what the accompanying documentation says, but there is nothing in the description, either in German or English, that says, "this cross belonged to Adolf Hitler."

The closest is the lot name:

Adolf Hitler/Anny Winter - Iron Cross 1st Class of 1914

By the way they are also selling "Hitler's" EK2. Same thing. But the next lot, which is a prototype Blood Order, says plainly:

Hitler's personal example.

So I very much doubt that the EK1 and the EK2 can be convincingly attributed to Hitler. Otherwise they would have said so.

This is what Hermann has to say re Anny Winter, the source for the various Hitler personality items:

The following lots come from the property of Hitler's housekeeper Anny Winter, who ran his household at the Prinzregentenplatz 16/II from 1929 to 1945 and had Hitler's unconditional trust. Hitler gave her several objects during his lifetime and left her other pieces in the will he wrote in April 1945. When Anny Winter began to sell some of the items to American collectors in 1950 to supplement her meager income as a tailor, the State of Bavaria raised property claims. The verdict was made in 1954 and ordered that a large number of objects were to be returned to Anny Winter. She sold most of the items until her death in 1970, the remaining pieces were offered in Graf Klenau's (predecessors of Hermann Historica) "Sonderkatalog Nachlass Winter" and sold in the subsequent auction in Munich in 1971.
Cf. also lot no. 7769 in the large autograph collection in this catalogue, a sheet of Adolf Hitler's note paper bearing the heading "Der Führer" with Anny Winter's confirmation of provenance to an American collector.

[frankandfrank]

Sold by Herrmann Historica for 180.000 Euro (240.000 US $) !!

[streptile]

A quarter of a million dollars...

Now that is probably the single most expensive Iron Cross ever sold.

[Jon Fish]

PLUS 25% Commision !!

[VtwinVince]

Holy cow, some people have REALLY deep pockets. Imagine if the items held in Moscow from the bunker ever came on the market.

[ErichS]

Frau Winter had a very large collection of Hitler's decorations given to her by him and also taken by her from the Brown House. She died in 1970 and her estate was auctioned off in Germany and again by Mohawk Arms here in the US. Did this EK come from that lot?

[der-hase-fee]

PLUS 25% Commision !!

Only 23% !

[streptile]

Did this EK come from that lot?

It says it did. Same with the "prototype" Blood Order.

[Philipson]

Only 23% !

No, 24%
shipping insurance is 1%

[Joe Mc]

sold by herrmann historica for 180.000 euro (240.000 us $) !!

wow i havn't seen this for a while, that is unreal!

[JohnD]

Someone either got a bargain or conned big time.

A Field Marshal's Batton for 3/4 million

His Munich table for a mil.

I fear he/she maybe the victim of the latter.

Even if this is just one of four examples he had, it could be described as priceless.

In todays TR market - USD250K for such a piece wouldnt qualify IMO.

[EK-collector]

i bet some russian "collector" just placed somewhere his money