The Floch interview regarding the Pink/Birch smocks

[phild]

Since everyone keeps ignoring this post, I thought I would bring it back up.

Bob, NickG responded in post116 and I did as well but it may have been in the smock titled thread on these that stalled a few days ago.

I examined every item WillieZ listed near the time they first showed up in the US at Least except the Kreta titles. The FJ helmet I had no opinion on until around 1999 as I don’t collect them so I admit I did not know if they were good or bad and probably assumed good.

The other items he listed I figured out on my own near the time they showed up along with other items like dot hbt wrap fakes that were even earlier. The differece is the birch smocks have everything right but the “look”, the other items have the look right but many of the details wrong.

The LW tropical trousers I think I recall came out at the end of the 80s, maybe 1990. They did have double needle seams (one) in each leg and at the time I added that as a “problem” to many others these showed. The birch smocks also have double needle seams in the sleeves, but I have long since learned this is ok but not real common. Honestly it bothered me more than any other feature on these during the 80s after recognizing it on my example. Of course 10-15 years ago one person with a lot of knowledge but does not like the birch smocks, came out and said he had never seen double needle on a fake smock.

[Marc Shaffer]

Do you think he was lying then that he made EKs?

It was always unsure of exactly where they came from(or were made) and still is. All we know is Floch bought them in Lodz . They could have been moved from Minsk to Poland . I have proven with official Soviet documents (see earlier threads) that uniforms were shipped from Berlin to the Soviet Union in 1946 for film work , so we know stuff was being moved around.

There has been not one iota of proof that these are even of the period.. Not a smidgen of proof. Sorry, the hypothesis of these smocks still comes down to could have, might have, may have and maybez.... nothing tying them to originality. You may have proven that uniforms were shipped from point a to point b, but no proof that they were pinkies. There has been no definitive proof of pinkys to be period originals... none what so ever. Only speculation and nothing but speculation about how they came about. Nothing other than a known and admitted faker finding and purchasing them in one area. Nothing yet as that even ties them to being of the period. Yet others that have experience beyond the majority of other collector's have put forth examples of them not being constructed like originals in materials, sizing, construction, etc. Not only that but see Willi's post. Fakes galore being made in the time period these smocks were "discovered"!

[kammo man]

They are mysterious and very labor intensively manufactured as you know, being a garment industry expert. There is absolutely NO WAY these were faked and sold to Floch for ONLY $10 bucks a pop with that kind of work and detail done to these, (and unnecessary detail for these being movie props)... even behind the iron curtain. As a garment business man you know this very well. What would the counter argument be my friend?

You are assuming Floch was telling the truth.
Thats naive.

[NickG]

Fakes galore being made in the time period these smocks were "discovered"!

Fakes galore in the late 80's and 90's....H & C publications (France) spawned this selling such fakes as HBT wrappers with their picture books and Military magazine etc...
HOWEVER not this detailed in the late 70's, early eighties. Very crude always! These hit the market 1981-1982 ish and came west shortly before that time...made with incredible detail in their manufacturing, just not seen that early in repros... This and the stamps and the lineage are all circumstantial evidence...
connecting the dots (like the original text book gear found with the same stamps...) that is proof. With circumstantial evidence you connect it to a conclusion of fact—
Fact: elaborately made, Studio(s) chain of custody, cheap acquisition price, coming from the East...Plenty of circumstantial "smidgens of proof".
What ignited the investigation of these is of course the 1947 stamp and the documentation in Russian proving that the Soviet military authorities were supplying studios with real gear in the late 1940's as per the stamps appearing on some and not on all. Recent discovery... Had most or all of these had such clear dates that would be suspect perhaps but most had this info defaced...or no stamps at all...and why stamp it and than make it illegible??? Why??? ...That's more circumstantial evidence in my view...

The defacing was done of course to cover their tracks...cover the chain of custody as these were smuggled out...Repros don't get smuggled out...they get made in China! and Floch also obtained (thousands?) of sets of original unissued SA tabs back in those days,
he did find stuff like this in the east...more evidence that he had a reputation like George Peterson to run into good gear which in my view these represent albeit not 100% Reich text book made...Ost Industrie made in Lodz and ended up in Polish and Belarus studios.

[kammo man]

The PINK is crude.

[nutmeg]

There has been not one iota of proof that these are even of the period.. Not a smidgen of proof. Sorry, the hypothesis of these smocks still comes down to could have, might have, may have and maybez.... nothing tying them to originality. You may have proven that uniforms were shipped from point a to point b, but no proof that they were pinkies. There has been no definitive proof of pinkys to be period originals... none what so ever. Only speculation and nothing but speculation about how they came about. Nothing other than a known and admitted faker finding and purchasing them in one area. Nothing yet as that even ties them to being of the period. Yet others that have experience beyond the majority of other collector's have put forth examples of them not being constructed like originals in materials, sizing, construction, etc. Not only that but see Willi's post. Fakes galore being made in the time period these smocks were "discovered"!

You are overlooking the same studio markings that also are found in some standard smocks and a pair of trousers. Of course these can be dismissed by the notion it was part of Floch's brilliant masterplan to fool collectors designed to be discovered 35 years later to validate the smocks sold decades before. Long range fakery planning? Without a doubt the Keyser Soze of our time.

[jacquesf]

... and the wheel goes round and round, round and round.....

[NickG]

The PINK is crude.

Please...Go ahead and explain to the audience here about chain stitch techniques....You have garment assembly knowledge Owen!
Crude??? really?

Here the Pink again with close up chain stitch + an original helmet cover from the famous "horsetrainer hoard" for comparison!
Note the thread material (and color) and the technique used! "Chain stitch" like that on fakes in the early 1980's???? Please!!!!

The naysayers crack me up...all they can do is mock us and say "the wheels go around and around"...NOTHING substantial is ever brought forward
by that camp! and by all means show me a bonafide fake from that time span with such stitching...please do so, can't wait to see it!
or Steve McColgan on newer versions of more accurate repro smocks of modern times? Anywhere close to that?
The pink smock chain stitch is actually tighter and more uniform than the genuine helmet covers that were found by horsetrainer!

Yeah lets go nuts with chain stitching on these pinks (in the right areas too) and sells these for $10 dollars a pop to the West...sure makes perfect sense right?
or a movie costume director (right up your alley)..."these need chain stitching" otherwise I can't use it in a movie...yeah right...Such details on fake movie props?
Please!

From the web:
This stitching type uses more thread and the amount of extra sewing time for garments where chain stitching is used can add up, making this stitching type more laborious than others. These are important traits to consider when choosing to use chain stitching in garment manufacturing.

[NZMark]

Please...Go ahead and explain to the audience here about chain stitch techniques....You have garment assembly knowledge Owen!
Crude??? really?

Here the Pink again with close up chain stitch + an original helmet cover from the famous "horsetrainer hoard" for comparison!
Note the thread material (and color) and the technique used! "Chain stitch" like that on fakes in the early 1980's???? Please!!!!

The naysayers crack me up...all they can do is mock us and say "the wheels go around and around"...NOTHING substantial is ever brought forward
by that camp! and by all means show me a bonafide fake from that time span with such stitching...please do so, can't wait to see it!
or Steve McColgan on newer versions of more accurate repro smocks of modern times? Anywhere close to that?
The pink smock chain stitch is actually tighter and more uniform than the genuine helmet covers that were found by horsetrainer!

Yeah lets go nuts with chain stitching on these pinks (in the right areas too) and sells these for $10 dollars a pop to the West...sure makes perfect sense right?
or a movie costume director (right up your alley)..."these need chain stitching" otherwise I can't use it in a movie...yeah right...Such details on fake movie props?
Please!

From the web:
This stitching type uses more thread and the amount of extra sewing time for garments where chain stitching is used can add up, making this stitching type more laborious than others. These are important traits to consider when choosing to use chain stitching in garment manufacturing.

Hell, Nick -
Please don't use logic - that doesn't go down to well
Mark
NZ

[NickG]

Hell, Nick -
Please don't use logic - that doesn't go down to well
Mark
NZ

Hahahaha! I know brother!

[Tim O'Keefe]

Peterson's opinion is noted, let's move on.

First thanks for posting your interview with Floch, well done. Also a thankyou to Daniel as well for talking to Floch
Floch comes across as a little sketchy in these conversations. Telling some truth but then mixing in some fiction to cover the tracks...more than one buyer, he only got 100-125 ? But all in one bale ?? Made in Lodz ?, Minsk stamps ?, Lodz again, list goes on.

I would not diss George Peterson's opinion on the Brick smock so lightly as he know's more than most posting on this thread. Most of the hardcore ss/camo guys don't like them. phild & Nick's post's go far in a good counter to the less detailed posts from the other side however.

There is still nothing that ties them directly to the War. Maybe someday...

[B. N. Singer]

... and the wheel goes round and round, round and round.....

And when it stops it is Always at the same spot.

B. N. Singer

[I Claudius]

Once again, we have the same couple of people trying to argue that an item with red flags from hell is real with absolutely no evidence. Not circumstantial evidence - actual direct providence. None.
The answers given in the first post add nothing really.
Simply raising these never ending threads on a bi-monthly basis and nodding in agreement will not batter most people into believing they're real. It's a good tactic for creating a false market though - raise raise and raise again the profile of these few smocks to try to swing the balance of probability until people starting paying more money for them 'just in case' they may be real. Not that that could happen here of course
Show us period photos of use. Show us the order trail back to the ss procurement office. Show us photos of the machines in the ghetto making them. Show us the paperwork relating to the bills to the ss labour office for the charges for the ghetto labour used.
That kind of stuff might add something.
Until then - no offence this merry-go-round should be laid to bed.

[CPB]

What does the silver bullet look like? What is ultimately needed to prove they were wartime produced? Has to be a period photo of one being worn, right?

[DaveG]

At the risk of appearing crass, what was the going price of the so-called pink smock purchased directly from Herr Flock at the SOS? Giving Herr Flock the benefit of doubt that he obviously believes that they are original and from a credible source, how did the price he was asking differ from a text book example, i.e. one that wouldn't give Owen the vapors? A grossly divergent difference in price would give me cause to wonder why. There's a Plane Tree type 1 currently listed on the Collector's Guild for $15,900. Considering they typically offer items moderately to grossly overpriced, would a $7500-10,000 price be more in line with the reality of the market? There's been a mint one on Estand for $1,355 for a while so I assume you paid less than that. I've known Herr Flock since the 1970s and while he may have many fine qualities, I don't recall charitable being one of those qualities when it came to moving his wares at the guns shows and militaria shows. I have no idea, nor do I care if these smocks (or the variant pink "smoke" on the Estand) are original or not. But if those selling them think they are original shouldn't the asking prices reflect that originality? Again, no dog in the fight, and frankly the most vocal on either side have at times been jackasses, producing a lot of heat but very little light.

Fare thee well. I'll stick to my Beanie Babies and stamps.