Heinz Macher and Fritz Witt grouping.

[markus]

Yes, I did. The story does check out.

Seriously?

I can't imagine this can check out, but I understand Kelly is a friend of yours.

I hate to say it, but I'm afraid Kelly Hicks got scammed the same way Kai did everyone else....


- "Dealer" (in this case a "Picker") buys document group at a public auction.

- "Picker" contacts well willingly paying customer and informs him (in-)directly (in this case via a contact in Spain) of the exclusive scoop.

- Well-paying American travels to the old continent to see and eventualy buy the group.

- A family member (in this case we're not even sure he was one, if not some neighbour kid) attests to the origins of the group (like Peter Witt in the case of Kai Winkler).

- By adding some tunic, officer's belt and fieldcap, etc. to the doc group, the price drastically increases and more profit is made on top of the document group.

- Dealer / Picker and "family member" are happy to have made a good buck...


To me it's the same scheme Winkler used. Nothing really more, nothing less.

It's a sad state of affairs.

Hopefully this thread will make more people aware of how these "exclusive" deals are being pulled off!

And let's hope we don't fall into them ourselves...!

Markus

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Yes, I did. The story does check out.

Looking for photo portrait from Fritz Witt, Wilhelm Reinhard and Heinrich Von Mauer.

...does they have to be wearing their birthday sword???
Pieter

[rob NL]

Seriously?

I can't imagine this can check out, but I understand Kelly is a friend of yours.

I hate to say it, but I'm afraid Kelly Hicks got scammed the same way Kai did everyone else....


- "Dealer" (in this case a "Picker") buys document group at a public auction.

- "Picker" contacts well willingly paying customer and informs him (in-)directly (in this case via a contact in Spain) of the exclusive scoop.

- Well-paying American travels to the old continent to see and eventualy buy the group.

- A family member (in this case we're not even sure he was one, if not some neighbour kid) attests to the origins of the group (like Peter Witt in the case of Kai Winkler).

- By adding some tunic, officer's belt and fieldcap, etc. to the doc group, the price drastically increases and more profit is made on top of the document group.

- Dealer / Picker and "family member" are happy to have made a good buck...


To me it's the same scheme Winkler used. Nothing really more, nothing less.

It's a sad state of affairs.

Hopefully this thread will make more people aware of how these "exclusive" deals are being pulled off!

And let's hope we don't fall into them ourselves...!

Markus

Markus, I have no reason to question Kelly's word or his expertise.
And John already told you that this is NOT the same tunic.

[rob NL]

Looking for photo portrait from Fritz Witt, Wilhelm Reinhard and Heinrich Von Mauer.

...does they have to be wearing their birthday sword???
Pieter

Don't think that Witt had a birthday sword, or maybe winkler made one already.

[markus]

Markus, I have no reason to question Kelly's word or his expertise.
And John already told you that this is NOT the same tunic.

Yeah, I'm just expressing what many are surely only thinking.

If Kelly believes the story and is happy with having bought into it
it's alright I guess. Imagine your dream would shatter..!

Hmm, a picker buying the documents from auction for EUR 12+
to add them to a tunic, fieldcap, belt, medals and then offering
the whole set for sale to an American dealer/collector the same
month the documents group was won at a public auction?!

It surely sounds very strange to me. It's even worse than Kai's.

Let's see when the story, eh 'group', is up for sale again...


Another great example of the classic: BUY THE ITEM, NOT THE STORY!


Only for the record, I'm not attacking Kelly, but only showing another
scam case of where a good paying customer is pulled over the table
with a poorly fabricated story and some either fake or willingly cashing-in
family members involved.

Btw, I'm sure that many of my still living veteran friends would sign
any kind of certificate that a certain item belonged to them during the
war. They'd even take photos with the items in hand etc. They'd do
it for free and they wouldn't even care. They'd be happy to do a favour.
Sad, but true!

Markus

[rob NL]

Yeah, I'm just expressing what many are surely only thinking.

If Kelly believes the story and is happy with having bought into it
it's alright I guess. Imagine your dream would shatter..!

Hmm, a picker buying the documents from auction for EUR 12+
to add them to a tunic, fieldcap, belt, medals and then offering
the whole set for sale to an American dealer/collector the same
month the documents group was won at a public auction?!

It surely sounds very strange to me. It's even worse than Kai's.

Let's see when the story, eh 'group', is up for sale again...


Another great example of the classic: BUY THE ITEM, NOT THE STORY!


Only for the record, I'm not attacking Kelly, but only showing another
scam case of where a good paying customer is pulled over the table
with a poorly fabricated story and some either fake or willingly cashing-in
family members involved.

Btw, I'm sure that many of my still living veteran friends would sign
any kind of certificate that a certain item belonged to them during the
war. They'd even take photos with the items in hand etc. They'd do
it for free and they wouldn't even care. They'd be happy to do a favour.
Sad, but true!

Markus

Maybe you should contact kelly to express your doubts.
I can't help you with your questions.

[markus]

Maybe you should contact kelly to express your doubts.
I can't help you with your questions.

I wasn't asking. The thing is quite obvious and another great example
of the current and future militaria market. It'll only get worse imo.

It's not your group of course, only a dealer friend's who's not only
dealing in helmets any longer, but expending into cloth etc.

No worries, I will pull off this thread for good now.

I just hope a few collectors have learned to think on their own
reading through all of this and don't rely on dealers so much
in the future to do the thinking for them.

Cheers,
Markus

[Thorsten B.]

I wasn't asking.

Exactly!

In two-three years this steadily growing bubble will burst, it´s like a natural law.

And like hyped real estate.

[rob NL]

I wasn't asking. The thing is quite obvious and another great example
of the current and future militaria market. It'll only get worse imo.

It's not your group of course, only a dealer friend's who's not only
dealing in helmets any longer, but expending into cloth etc.

No worries, I will pull off this thread for good now.

I am not worried at all markus, why should I ??
If your convinced that the grouping is bad, then hey, it's your opinion.

[Max Wünsche]

(sarcasm on) Are you the same Thorsten? You know, the one that has been forever talking up the market - partucularly cultural stuff and Allach..... (sarcasm off)




Forgive me for thinking that your were not, as I cannot believe you have just admitted to the militaria bubble bursting....And using my real estate analogy no less.

Your like the media turning on the building industry when their advertising revenue drops. One minute your spruiking them, the next your putting them to the sword...

Exactly!

In two-three years this steadily growing bubble will burst, it´s like a natural law.

And like hyped real estate.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

one group here ......one group there, we just saw a terrible scam....and i think that the point is that we will probably see more and more of these......

The near perfect fakes with stories have fooled the so-called experts many times and then the truth is out in the open dealers disappear and the name and guarantees are worthless...this is a fact of our hobby UNFORTUNATELY.....

It has come to the point that certain things are too good to be true, we just saw it with the group that has been the object of two threads, you need to be a detective now days and some facts are way to clear to indicate danger….

Some people will not accept them, others will cover it up due to their best interests, others will rat them out for the benefit of others or due to anger….

I do believe that there is a lot of new generation almost perfect fakes flooding the market and in some time it will not matter the dealers reputation, name or friendship, when the facts of this new fakes are known and the idea is out in the open…….

A lot of people will not be happy and the he is a great guy, he is an expert....he is a friend...will not matter....let us all take the blind fold away and see the facts that sorrounds an item, its detail and if all of the sudden things that were hard to find are all over the place......

[Thorsten B.]

I only collect what I know is good:

Cultural stuff - better say NS/SS art objects including Allach - are a top investment for sure.

Original period uniforms of high ranking personalities as well - but unfortunately the majority are fakes as shown within this thread.

Good uniforms and groups will hold their value - and when the fake bubble bursts will be the only survivors within that market segment and probably go up once more.

Good and valuable real estate was never really hit by the bubble as well - and is stronger than ever.

Anything else will be recognized as what it has always been - worthless junk.

[John Pic]

I never saw the tunic aquired by Kelly Hicks but If I did I would know if it was one of the three SS Schule Braunschweig tunics he sold as a grouping...one making it to collector Dealer Bob Demel.

[blitzkrieg gsd]

I only collect what I know is good:

Cultural stuff - better say NS/SS art objects including Allach - are a top investment for sure.

Original period uniforms of high ranking personalities as well - but unfortunately the majority are fakes as shown within this thread.

Good uniforms and groups will hold their value - and when the fake bubble bursts will be the only survivors within that market segment and probably go up once more.

Good and valuable real estate was never really hit by the bubble as well - and is stronger than ever.

Anything else will be recognized as what it has always been - worthless junk.

Here's the problem if the majority of big named uniform groups are fakes. In a few years everyone will expect all uniform groups to be bad. So why would you think they would be a good investment now? Already you have to start off when buying a uniform thinking its a fake and prove its real. And it's just going to get worse on down the road. As time goes by the better fakes will look better and better from time ageing them. I say you will be able to buy for cheaper down the road because people will be to scared to spend the big bucks we see them sell for now.

Have you guys noticed less super nice SS uniform being displayed at shows the last couple years? I think we are already seeing guys keeping them in the closet. My thinking for this is that. Guys don't want them picked apart by all the so called experts at the shows. And I see there thinking on this a guy could make a comment and it could be wrong. Then someone else over hears it and next thing you know a guys whole collection is in question. This could cost a guy a lot of money when it comes time to sell. What do you guys think could this be happening now?

[judas]

Here's the problem if the majority of big named uniform groups are fakes. In a few years everyone will expect all uniform groups to be bad. So why would you think they would be a good investment now? Already you have to start off when buying a uniform thinking its a fake and prove its real. And it's just going to get worse on down the road. As time goes by the better fakes will look better and better from time ageing them. I say you will be able to buy for cheaper down the road because people will be to scared to spend the big bucks we see them sell for now.

Have you guys noticed less super nice SS uniform being displayed at shows the last couple years? I think we are already seeing guys keeping them in the closet. My thinking for this is that. Guys don't want them picked apart by all the so called experts at the shows. And I see there thinking on this a guy could make a comment and it could be wrong. Then someone else over hears it and next thing you know a guys whole collection is in question. This could cost a guy a lot of money when it comes time to sell. What do you guys think could this be happening now?

well said and true and you will find most of them making these comments ,have never ownd a tunic and to this day still dont , i have learnt the hard way with these sorts of people and there are more then there shair on here , and other sites .