Heinz Macher and Fritz Witt grouping.

[N.C. Wyeth]

There will be "some" . . .

And I hate to thing down the road when the old timers are gone and there stuff comes for sale no one will buy it.

As this situation of forgery becomes all the greater exposed, it will be curious to see what the future holds . . . I suspect this very same thought will have the very same affect in time . . . and even if the result is a drop in price [to eventually achieve a sale], I equally expect a wavering threshold will [eventually] be reached . . . where even those that have such doubt, will find the risk associated with the cost is worthwhile . . . and will ultimately convince themselves of making a purchase - regardless of the fear of forgery. This hobby is an addiction . . . and when the price is right, it will never matter to some if the item is wrong.

[blitzkrieg gsd]

That's exactly what it will take to sell them you said it all. The price will have to be low enough so if you do get burned it won't hurt to bad. And that's BS it should be you pay what it's worth or what it's worth to you. Not what you don't mind loosing

[John Pic]

Thats what I thought Manzie....youre a good poser but not good enough...money and mouth enough to buy what you know little about.

[Thorsten B.]

Finally what has this thread turned into?!

I hate SS uniforms and the collectors who are actually able to buy and keep them??

Mr. Tuxedo sneaked one time into this thread and the very same evening had a drink on his clients and some seekers after truth in this thread.

And his watch costs more than other people´s cars so why should he really bother?

Power is with those who are not in the need to show it.

And John: You are not dangerous for him because neither you nor anybody else here has the balls or the money to bring an action against him or any other faker.

Please correct me if I might be wrong.

[Max Wünsche]

Were you dropped on your head as a baby? seriously.


I think this thread has been very interesting, up until the last few pages where you seem to want to call bull***t on what others have said.

And now you want to have a go at others for supposedly dragging the thread into the gutter... Take a look in the mirror mate.

Finally what has this thread turned into?!

I hate SS uniforms and the collectors who are actually able to buy and keep them??

Mr. Tuxedo sneaked one time into this thread and the very same evening had a drink on his clients and some seekers after truth in this thread.

And his watch costs more than other people´s cars so why should he really bother?

Power is with those who are not in the need to show it.

And John: You are not dangerous for him because neither you nor anybody else here has the balls or the money to bring an action against him or any other faker.

Please correct me if I might be wrong.

[rob NL]

Thorsten, didn't I ask you to give me the details of that faker in Germany??
I don't understand your point.

[Thorsten B.]

Well, look at this thread:

The point is that my offered help is not appreciated at all.

In fact it is not even realized as such but instead I get accused.

Can´t make stupid people smart - impossible.

So why to bother?

[John Pic]

Thorsten you do have a point. Yes he probably doesnt give a crap...but threads like this aren't for him they are fo others who do buy these things and believe in them to see what is actually going on.

I do not care what Kai winkler is doing....but I do care about other collectors.

What I do not understand is why you're so interested in jumping into threads like this if you can help then just do it and quit with the games..there is no longer a need for that the cat is out of the bag now.

Peter Manzie I can understand he is worried about his "investments" but you..you just said you do not even like SS tunics.

[Thorsten B.]

Misunderstanding:

It was meant as an ironic feature in general, therefore the doubled question marks.

Who knows: One day I might find a fine period tunic - they are still out there.

Yes, I would also consider that a fine and wise investment.

[jimt]

my thoughts

For collectors that are really interested in SS uniforms you must have a total knowledge of insignia , when it was made , for what unit , etc. then add to that the type of tunic , period it was worn in , then add to that the provenance of the uniform , and do the homework as to who it came from , then after this "does it meet YOUR standards ? " after these questions do you still have a lingering doubt in your mind? if you answer " I'm sure" and comfortable with the above questions / answers go one step further and talk to some collectors if they have any knowledge of the item , you would be surprised what a little digging will un-earth , Oh yea I remember those shoulderboards, seen that same eagle at a show , tabs are not correct , anyway you get the drift , collecting SS uniforms was never for the faint of heart , if the tunic is named OK get the history of Man from the archives see if the loops match up, is it his size ? is there age/fading under the isignia, just really look at the piece and study it. Get a decent return privilege if things are not what they seem when you take it home and study it in different lights . View tunics that are know originals and study how a mint tunic looks that been that way for 60-70 years as John pic has pointed out , they do not look the same as a newly made one no matter how hard they try. I have collected for really a long time and trust me , it was no different 45 years ago , just a little harder today in some ways , the internet can wreak havoc on fake items. I look on some dealer sites and see way to many SS tunics, real ones are very rare, you must understand this , view them this way . If you have the knowledge they will have a hard time targeting you .
anyway, happy 4 th july
jim toncar

[jacquesf]

Jim, that is sound, solid advice. If you have to start convincing yourself about an item, you are in trouble. Iguess most of us has done that and learned the hardway. Jacques

[markus]

Excellent posting by Jim Toncar. No one could have said it better.

Many collectors have too much money, too little free time to do in depth investigation and furthermore some only want a 'cool' looking W-SS tunic to display medals and equipment without caring too much about the real historical aspects behind these pieces.

The reality of the matter is that real untouched tunics are very, very rare. Even stripped tunics are a seldom find. At least in Germany/Europe.

I have asked 2 friends of mine in the past days. Both recognized authors of LAH/HJ-Division books. Both friends also collect to some degree.

Together, we 3 have visited and met probably around 250 Waffen-SS vets (mostly LAH, HJ, T and Wiking) within a period of max. 20 years. Most KC holders and their families were visited.

Tunics and uniform pieces found: No more than 10 in total. Almost everything stripped of insignia. Never 2 pieces together.

In my own case I have never found any uniform piece with any vet or their family. Sure there were/are photos, docs, medals, yes, but uniforms? People mostly laughed at me, when I ask(ed) them for possible uniforms which survived the war. Everything was lost during the war or destroyed afterwards and no one wanted to have an SS uniform hanging in their closets and even less so the 'known' personalities who had the police knock on their doors well into the 60ies.

I'd say 95 pct of all W-SS tunics out there are at least put-togethers. And I would add that one can hardly really collect untouched tunics because of the simple lack of existence and availability.

Looking at a poll we did here on the forum a while back about what SS items people collect showed us that the main-focus lays by far on uniforms and headgear. No wonder fakers and dealer put their main emphasis on satisfying that demand! Which dealer wants to live off selling 2 real SS tunics a year? That's where the problem starts. Too much demand, too little supply and willing collectors with very little deep knowledge of what they are buying who shell out tons of money. That why such elements like Kai Winkler do not even care about putting uniforms together from real, original insignias...they take the liberty to sell complete BS items and know they'll get away with it for sure...

The future of SS uniform collecting is in our hands to decide. To accept that we might be able to add a true original piece to our collection some day (not tomorrow, or maybe not even in the next ten years) or run into the open arms of criminals.

I have "accepted" the fact eg, that my LAH collection will never be impressive and will probably never include a true LAH uniform. Sad but true and very real. So be it. So is history.

You and only you make the call for your collection!

Stay real, stay original and be safe from fraud, truly enjoying this hobby and don't let your ego fuxx with you.

Markus

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

if we are a bit into the SS collecting world, we can say that probability to find a "complete" and "original" (not "frankensteined") uniform/jacket equal = near zero.
Of course i'm not denying the fact that if you are good, you can still be a bit more lucky than the "common" collector...

Some people play lottery, some other (may) collect SS uniforms...

See You

Vince

[John Pic]

There are many originals out there...in collections ...but the sad thing now is the owners if they ever sell will have the burden of proof. Word of mouth is no longer acceptable...even vet stories the longer ago maybe the better the chances. Jim is right hands on and vast knowledge is important and connections with knowledge.

Mike C had a uniform with what I call Iron clad proof..a photo of the actual tunic in wear during the period that could be verified very easily by just looking.

Witts tunic looks like nothing in the period pictures of him.

I posted this picture before of another Winkler tunic which exhibits all the right age and wear but bad cyphers and a bad story. When I asked him about it he told me it belonged to "Das Reich" officer Horst Hain...thats when I decided he was not to be trusted.

This belonged to former member "Phoef" whose antics were quite amusing here.

[BenVK]

Being a hat collector, Kai Winklers very questionable offerings in that area have been well known to me and most other hat collectors I can think of for a long long time.

Having said that, John Pic recently alluded to a red piped WSS visor that appeared on this forum awhile ago. I actualy handled that cap in person and it was so well made it was impossible to say for certain whether it was real or fake. I didn't like it though for some reason that I couldn't put my finger on, call it a gut feeling and then I learned it had come from Kai. That was the nail in the coffin for me.

What suprises me most about this thread though, and no offence to anyone, is that quite a few people seem to be surprised that this kind of fakery goes on and/or truly believe that there are lots of untouched SS uniforms still out there to buy with all the original insignia and awards still attached.

If this thread were cleaned up so that only the relevant posts remained, it would be a very valuable wake up call to a lot of collectors out there.