Heinz Macher and Fritz Witt grouping.

[DonC]

Don very true but the facts remain the same it's a crime.

Well understood, that...

Don

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Sponsors will probably always be the root of why the forum won't do anything but that don't have to make us soft. We don't even need to charge them we just have to make it common knowledge to collectors. Now weather they believe and boy cot them is there deal but we can pass the word. And that is being done the forum has turned me on to guys to stay away from. I will only buy from dealers in the US if I'm have to buy from one at all. And I old rather buy from them at a show so I know what they look like in case I need to find them again you know.

[John Pic]

I don't think anyone realizes the impact this has on the hobby as a whole...despite it now being read by others who frequent other forums it has not even been mentioned on those forums. Because...as I read one member on another forums post..... if you piss off the dealers they wont be nice and deal with you anymore. Many think outting them is "childish" and a waste of time...I disagree wholeheartedly...its not childish or a waste of time if it caused a shake up in the market. What is childish and overtly a western ideal is to know someone is commiting a petty crime but overlook it so that status is not interrupted...look at poor old Joe Paterno's reputation now....because of the "Good ole boy" mentality, eventually cats get out of the bag even if it takes years.

[ss3]

Just reading through this very interesting thread and would like to add the following, which may be of interest to fellow members?

I had the great luck to have close contact with Peter Witt around 10 years ago, when writing my first book (Dietrich's Warriors). Fritz Witt' brother, Franz, was a Platoon Commander in the 3. Kompanie - the subject matter for the DW book. With this in mind, I made contact with Herr (Peter) Witt and he very kindly provided a wealth of information both in writing, but also face to face when I went to his home on a few occasions.

In one of our first phone conversations, he happened to mention that he did have some of his Father's items from the war. As I am sure you can all imagine, I was very excited by this and asked if it would be possible to see them at some stage. My first visit to his home (incidentally, the same house where Fritz and Franz are standing in the photo on the cover of DW, along with 'Papa' Schuch) not only gave me a chance to talk to Herr Witt in great detail, but he also produced the items he had and allowed me to handle them and photograph them.

There was his EKI (lovely screw-back version and the first EKI to be awarded to a Waffen-SS man in WWII), his RK and his Eichenlaub. There was also one Brigadefuhrer epaulette, which did not carry the LAH metal monogram. Last, but certainly not least was the helmet he was wearing when he was killed - a macabre item to keep, but it is what it is. It is a rusted shell with 3 holes in in, 2 of them large and it is clear that a large piece of shrapnel entered the left side, went through the main part of Fritz Witt's skull and left the right side. All of these items were being worn by Fritz Witt when he died. The story of how they survived is fascinating in itself, but that's for another day!!

There was nothing else in the collection, other than copies of his award documents, the early ones being very crude and handwritten. The last item he showed me (but not on this first visit) was his father's Wehrpass - a cracking civilian photo of Witt on the inside cover.

The war-time items were given to him by a Kameraden of his Father's years after the war's end, the Wehrpass was given to him by someone who bought it (after it was stolen from the archives).

There was also a spectacular pre-war LAH related item. A real one-off and if this auctioneer had great things to sell from the 'Witt Family', I can tell that he could name his price for this! I am deliberately not mentioning the exact nature of what it is.

The point for writing all of this is to say that, If Peter Witt showed me everything he had belonging to his Dad, then why not show me the extensive uniforms that are for sale and mentioned in this thread?

Although I have not had contact with Herr Witt for a few years, I see no reason for him to involved in a scam like the one mentioned here. In all of my dealings with him, he was honest, helpful, committed to helping my book project and all for no financial gain. He came across as a very honourable man who was dedicated to ensuring the correct history of the Waffen-SS was recorded.

To end this note, in my discussions he did mention that people often write to him and offer to buy his Father's items, sometimes for very high sums of money. At the time of talking to him, he had no intention of selling any of the items I seen personally, and listed above. They are a family legacy.

Hope this helps and provides some facts on what may have survived. I seen these personally, as did my Wife on a subsequent visit and also one my closest friends.

[John Pic]

Thank you for this contribution excellent, I think by truth being revealed, history benefits...

[blitzkrieg gsd]

The truth is simple about this dealer and deal its a scam period. I think it been proven without a dought in this thread. By the way has this dealer ever jumped in on any of these threads to defend himself? If not why not wouldn't he want to protect his reputation in this business? And if he hasn't wouldn't that be evidence that he has no defense for what he is doing? To me it seems like a admission of guilt that he hasn't chimed in to defend himself.

[WEISNER]

The worst defense is no defense, it does make one look guilty!
Kev

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

ss3, i think we just have to say : bravo.
I think this topic can be closed now and pinned down.


See You

Vince

[rob NL]

Just reading through this very interesting thread and would like to add the following, which may be of interest to fellow members?

I had the great luck to have close contact with Peter Witt around 10 years ago, when writing my first book (Dietrich's Warriors). Fritz Witt' brother, Franz, was a Platoon Commander in the 3. Kompanie - the subject matter for the DW book. With this in mind, I made contact with Herr (Peter) Witt and he very kindly provided a wealth of information both in writing, but also face to face when I went to his home on a few occasions.

In one of our first phone conversations, he happened to mention that he did have some of his Father's items from the war. As I am sure you can all imagine, I was very excited by this and asked if it would be possible to see them at some stage. My first visit to his home (incidentally, the same house where Fritz and Franz are standing in the photo on the cover of DW, along with 'Papa' Schuch) not only gave me a chance to talk to Herr Witt in great detail, but he also produced the items he had and allowed me to handle them and photograph them.

There was his EKI (lovely screw-back version and the first EKI to be awarded to a Waffen-SS man in WWII), his RK and his Eichenlaub. There was also one Brigadefuhrer epaulette, which did not carry the LAH metal monogram. Last, but certainly not least was the helmet he was wearing when he was killed - a macabre item to keep, but it is what it is. It is a rusted shell with 3 holes in in, 2 of them large and it is clear that a large piece of shrapnel entered the left side, went through the main part of Fritz Witt's skull and left the right side. All of these items were being worn by Fritz Witt when he died. The story of how they survived is fascinating in itself, but that's for another day!!

There was nothing else in the collection, other than copies of his award documents, the early ones being very crude and handwritten. The last item he showed me (but not on this first visit) was his father's Wehrpass - a cracking civilian photo of Witt on the inside cover.

The war-time items were given to him by a Kameraden of his Father's years after the war's end, the Wehrpass was given to him by someone who bought it (after it was stolen from the archives).

There was also a spectacular pre-war LAH related item. A real one-off and if this auctioneer had great things to sell from the 'Witt Family', I can tell that he could name his price for this! I am deliberately not mentioning the exact nature of what it is.

The point for writing all of this is to say that, If Peter Witt showed me everything he had belonging to his Dad, then why not show me the extensive uniforms that are for sale and mentioned in this thread?

Although I have not had contact with Herr Witt for a few years, I see no reason for him to involved in a scam like the one mentioned here. In all of my dealings with him, he was honest, helpful, committed to helping my book project and all for no financial gain. He came across as a very honourable man who was dedicated to ensuring the correct history of the Waffen-SS was recorded.

To end this note, in my discussions he did mention that people often write to him and offer to buy his Father's items, sometimes for very high sums of money. At the time of talking to him, he had no intention of selling any of the items I seen personally, and listed above. They are a family legacy.

Hope this helps and provides some facts on what may have survived. I seen these personally, as did my Wife on a subsequent visit and also one my closest friends.

The trouble now is with the Non-texbook items that you are referring to, they can't be sold anymore IMHO.
Because the whole grouping has been built, and believe it or not, the son is in on the scam. So there is no way of telling what item did came out of the group.
If they are textbook items that one can see that they are real, such as documents and awards, then you can tell, if not, I would not touch it.
And IF the awards are real, which ones were his?? There are 3(!) complete sets.

So history got destroyed here. As well as that family legacy.
And part of my collecting interest also.

[Spanish Freiwillige]

Robb did you see any helmet with holes in it???

The one that was shown looks way to neat to be a rusted helmet like the one that was comented by SS3

[stonemint]

The truth is simple about this dealer and deal its a scam period. I think it been proven without a dought in this thread. By the way has this dealer ever jumped in on any of these threads to defend himself? If not why not wouldn't he want to protect his reputation in this business? And if he hasn't wouldn't that be evidence that he has no defense for what he is doing? To me it seems like a admission of guilt that he hasn't chimed in to defend himself.

Agreed--it is called guilt by silence (and then there is "guilt by flight").

Back in the early days of the internet and these forums, I thought the 'net would spell the end of this kind of chicanery due to the speed (and ease) with which fakes can be outed (as well as bad dealers). Much to my surpise (now 15 years later) the opposite is true--they are still going at it, as if we (and these forums) do not exist.

Oops, outed on fake tux badges? Gotta make up the difference--how 'bout a Witt grouping?

And now that this ensemble is toxic, a new (and I mean that literally) fake (or fake grouping) will rise from the ashes to take its place.....

[DonC]

Did this grouping ever see the light of day online, or was it just being flogged to a select group?

Don

[DougB]

So history got destroyed here. As well as that family legacy.
And part of my collecting interest also.

Right on all counts Rob.

[John Pic]

It was flogged to a select group it was never listed....if you watch certain German auctions over the years some very rare or personality related tunics would surface for auction such as the Fegelein tunic....we all know through history and many people writing about Fegelein that the possibility was slim...and the fact that the tunic did not resemble anything ever captured in a period photo of the man. People need to use deductive reasoning when dealing with uniforms....Sherlock Holmes if you will.

The Witt and Macher groupings where discusssed with people prior to their hitting the market and apparently partially sold to at least one collector...I did not know this when I first atacked the group I thought it was all in the works still...but after awhile Rob contacted me and told me what happened....I wanted to be angry with him and Beobachter who jumped on me in the Fegelein thread, but I know what its like to be fooled by high end things...and how difficult it is to tell at first glance. They are collectors and Im on their side..I had already made up my mind that certain dealers are tricksters and not to be trusted....its now up to others to learn .

[ss3]

Hope my thoughts were of use to some regarding this thread. Thanks to Rob for his personal message and real shame that there was an additional aspect to this potentially involving Peter Witt.

I listed what I seen and knew then, as it may help to clarify what may have been available, what took place before my contact with Herr Witt and after, I cannot speak for, I can only give my experiences.

On a related note, on conversation with many veterans, they usually do not attach the same excitement to uniform and other items that some of us do. One well remembered quote when one of my friends asked an SS veteran (12th SS) what type of camo uniform he had, the reply was, "no idea, all I remember was that it had lice and blood on it!"

As many of you have said - too many sharks out there all too happy to relieve us of our hard earned cash for that 'unique and original' item. Oh for a time machine!!