WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[SScollector]

Wow! What a nice set Brad!
That's what I'm talking about!

Thanks for the pics!
Chris

[SJP]

[QUOTE=craig a. thomas jr]I believe Winklers site has 3 or 4 of them on the site one being sold...all in pristine condition, with all the same MM known reproduction numbers. My opinion all bad.

IMO Fred & Craig are right.These eagles must have arrived w/the mint EM LAH baroque boards,the mint waffenfarbe LAH boards,the mint LAH officer cyphers,ect.Excellent copies use originals as templates.To many of his items look like they were made yesterday.The several items I looked at were enough for me. Cheers Steve

[bwanek1]

[QUOTE=SJP]

I believe Winklers site has 3 or 4 of them on the site one being sold...all in pristine condition, with all the same MM known reproduction numbers. My opinion all bad.

IMO Fred & Craig are right.These eagles must have arrived w/the mint EM LAH baroque boards,the mint waffenfarbe LAH boards,the mint LAH officer cyphers,ect.Excellent copies use originals as templates.To many of his items look like they were made yesterday.The several items I looked at were enough for me. Cheers Steve

Steve,

I mean no disrespect, but the fact that Kai has multiple mint examples is not in itself damning; it is merely cause for strong skepticism. I acknowledged my own concern before buying one of the 499/42 eagles. However, upon close hands-on inspection, there was absolutely no denying the authenticity of that piece. I was expecting to receive it, condemn it, and send it back. Instead, I was amazed to find my substantial doubts were unjustified in this case.

I won't get into the details of the dies (I will leave that for Chris, who has done the most truly scholarly research in that arena). I will simply focus on details such as the pins. The copper pins are identical to those on my 499/41 skull. Look at the lines running along the length of the pins on the photo I posted. Though it may be difficult to see in the photo, they are identical on both pieces. Likewise, the crimps are identically made. Furthermore, the eagle itself is made using the CupAl wafer with the exposed copper rear side. Even if someone had acquired the original dies, the cost to reproduce this exact eagle material (rather than use pure aluminum), exact pin material (down to duplicating the lines) and exact assembly mechanism (to produce identical crimp markings) would be unimaginably prohibitive. Even if a forger had the time, resources, and financial backing to reproduce not only the materials, but also the manufacturing and assembly methods necessary to duplicate the fine details such as the exact pins, I find it almost inconceivable that a forger would have the knowledge to do each of these things.

Where did Kai get his cache? I don't know. I'd love to ask him. He clearly acquired them from someone who found a box-full in some factory, tailor shop, or warehouse at the end of the war. However, the mere fact that he has several is not alone evidence to deny what I am sure you would agree on personal inspection is authentic.

Lastly, I acknowledge that with sufficient time, money, and painstaking effort, a truly "undetectable" fake could be made, though the cost in doing so would likely be higher than the potential return on such an investment. However, if the time has really come when forgeries are being made with such exact precision and with such identical materials that they can fool the true experts in the field, I will throw in the towel and give up this hobby.

Again, no disrespect to you, Steve, but I would welcome the opinions of anyone else who has actually inspected these eagles firsthand, not just drawn conclusions based on the photos and the circumstantial evidence of their abundance in one seller's possession.

Respectfully,
Brad

[SJP]

Brad , I realize each item needs to be evaluated on its own merit and I haven't handeled these eagles.I took another look after Chris's post and considered one of those eagles for my collection. I see a pattern with items posted on his site that are germane to this discussion. All unissued. I don't know If he is confused or found he the mother lode but some of the items listed should have sold in a NYS but their still available.This could be a case of "blending" but with SS one should err on the side of caution IMO.Cheers Steve

[bwanek1]

Brad , I realize each item needs to be evaluated on its own merit and I haven't handeled these eagles.I took another look after Chris's post and considered one of those eagles for my collection. I see a pattern with items posted on his site that are germane to this discussion. All unissued. I don't know If he is confused or found he the mother lode but some of the items listed should have sold in a NYS but their still available.This could be a case of "blending" but with SS one should err on the side of caution IMO.Cheers Steve

Steve,

Like Chris, I am not promoting Kai. I will be the first to agree that there are items on his site which I know to be fake. I draw no conclusion here as to whether these fake items represent honest errors on his part or whether he is attempting to deceive potential buyers. I will say that, like you, when I see fakes being sold as real by anyone, I immediately become suspicious about all of his merchandise. Accordingly, I was skeptical about these eagles. However, in spite of my concerns, they looked promising and, knowing his return policy, I decided to take a chance and risk losing the shipping costs to have a look. I am glad I did. I would encourage anyone else to do the same.

Regards,
Brad

Here is an M1 1/72 eagle I have, I believe it's a good one, but it doesn't have an RZM mark. What do you guys think? Can we add a plain "M 1/72" to the list?
Regards,
Fred

Here is the updated known good list:


Skulls:

RZM D.&S.M. GES.GESCH.
RZM 52
RZM M1/52
RZM 254/42
RZM 499/41
RZM M1/24
GES.GESCH.
S.P.40

Eagles:

RZM 394-35
RZM M1/52
RZM M1/17
RZM SS 155/36
RZM SS 155/42
Unmarked
RZM M1/72
RZM SS 499/42 M1/72
RZM SS M1/167
RZM M1/8
RZM SS 475/39
RZM SS 475/42


Best, Chris

[Sayle F]

you sure it is not on the upper part of the other wing? I can not see behind the prong.

I carefully bent the other prong up, no definitive markings that I can see...

Here are some more closeups.

Regards,

Fred

right side

[John T]

HI Fred:


It is possible that the die got filled and therefore did not leave the impression...you see this on the 155 zincer eagles...or of course it could have never had the marking to begin with.

...actually looking at the piece closer I see an outline of what appears to be a circle on the right side reverse, John

[John T]

This is what I am talking about:

[Donald Abenheim]

Zimmermann badge

I have seen badges like this on black caps of various kinds of the era 1936,7 & 8. I think there is a remnant of the RZM marking as the others have divined. Thank you for the nice, clear images of this badge.

John and Donald,
Thanks for your replies. John, I think you may be right, it does look like a circular mark is there. I checked it with a loupe, but can't see any trace of lettering. Perhaps a weak die is the answer, as the M1/72 mark is not very clear either. This pic is about as good as I can get.
Regards,
Fred

[SScollector]

This is 100% proper. The M1/72 and/or the RZM are commonly seen
like this, due to the wear of the dies, before they made the next die variation.
The circle is still plainly visible.

Best, Chris

[Sayle F]

Here you can see the rzm more clearly and with different prong attachments.