WSS caps eagle and tk marks

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello Gary,

You don't sound rude at all since you are explaining your own opinion which I deeply respect. It is very fortunate humans are not all alike! It is very true I do not like lists (any lists) dealing with what was faked and/or what was not (yet). I certainly do prefer lists saying which original markings had been referenced (with evidence) and that's all. Just providing some readers the feeling whatever marking could be the safe harbor can be a disaster, even if it was right a time of first printing. I certainly agree that close than anything has been faked as of today, even if some are still not, which is due to extreme rarity of the original specimen or lack of knowledge from the faker. But having on the same page a listing about what is not faked (or believed it is not (yet)) and another listing dealing with forgeries will provide a somehow safe harbor for some collectors and a nice idea outlet about what can be the next production for fakers reading the post as well.
Yes, a lot of collectors are naive, and a lot are not. The second kind learnt, the first get robbed all the time and yes, even some will start buying based on what they believe could be a safe harbor, like a list for example. Their fault, you will tell me, but maybe not all the time. You are very right when you say study by all means but sometimes it starts by buying a book or two on the subject. How many books were write after checking 100% the accuracy of the information? Not a lot even if there is fortunately some. So, next step is to realize the errors printed in the book(s). Having stuffs direct from vets and study them? If you are new to this hobby, how can you do that? Most vets are dead now or do no longer have anything in their hands. So, another door closed which was opened for old timers. Internet? You know as much as I this way of communication have the best AND the worst. Usually, here again the advanced collector will have the skills to be able to select the better source of information, but what about the novice? So, yes, lots of new collectors will become naive or will totally stop to collect after all this, but it is not especially their fault and if we do our best to prevent this we will achieve something nice. How? Just basing anything said on evidence and don't be afraid to say "I don't know". You are right, I did a long way with SS Belts Buckles, but this is due because I did not accept ANYTHING wrote or said before as granted. Any piece of information I certified so far was based on strict evidence after spending time trying to confirm the accuracy of what was previously written. Surprising what we can find and how many are just repeating mistakes made by others. ONLY evidence is the start of the safe harbor, all the rest is just personal preference, and this is why I previously posted the above link. BH is deeply respected by many as having strong knowledge in SS memorabilia (you are right, I do have knowledge or interest only in SS belt buckles myself so I let readers determine if it is right or wrong) and took responsibility in posting what was supposed to be a fake eagle labeling it as ORIGINAL. If he did such it is because he certainly thought to be positive in his feelings. I once more leave readers/collectors to choose who is right, who is wrong based on the arguments shown but as long no evidence is given, it will remains personal preference, not evidence. You are very right to keep valid only YOUR opinion since there is no evidence to make you change. But probably BH did not change his.

It is true that SS Buckles follow their own pattern and history, but remains one thing; they are related to SS components. When A. Hitler sent an order to all makers in Lüdenscheid forbidding the use of nickel silver to produce anything, if I do not expect to find a SS buckle made in nickel silver after this date, I do not expect to find a SS cap eagle neither. When I read another order sent by the RS-SS forbidding to produce more that what was strictly ordered, under confiscation of goods, I do not expect to find more, SS Buckles or cap eagles. Even if it is well known that disobedience to orders were rather common with the SS, remains it was on personal level, not dealing with mass production. Belt buckles were made by same makers than metallic insignias.
You are very right when you say that documentation will not prove the item in hands is original, and it never did, but it has the benefit to say such unheard item in hands has an evident source. So, such item goes from the full "No, it is not!" to the "Maybe", but as you said, that's it.

Before reading this thread, I always thought original SS cap eagles from the pre war years could be marked like eagles made by competitors as M1/xx (M1/17 for Assmann). You are right, I do not know them and I never paid attention to them before but at least it was very logical. The only CERTITUDE was that Assmann had such SS cap eagle in his catalog. Now, I am paying attention and what do I have?
Two things: M1/17 is found only on what is believed to be fakes (and you can be very right - I even told you that it was enforced with records of one of my reliable diggers). Only personal feelings
Second: Original and fake Assmann SS cap eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS. Originals are so far based on nothing (at least for me - please don't ask me to take this close up photo as evidence when even you and Rick are by now questioning them). I also have to add that NO SS eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS were found by the same digger neither). So, here also, personal feelings.
So, please tell me where are the SS eagles produced by Assmann (I took the liberty to assume he was producing them - not reselling them, and that the RZM 155/36 SS eagle is original) from 1936 to 1943, or even from 1936 to 1941 (you are right I forgot the 499/41 which leaves us only with 4 full empty years instead of five)? Looks like this question is avoided.
So, at least this question answered by collectors having a greater experience with metallic SS cap eagles will be of great help if I want one day collect metallic SS cap eagles. I am sorry, but you are very right, I do not have any possibility to prove anything, one way or the other, except this eagle is on an original sales catalog, but was expecting someone could be able to bring me something strong enough.

I deeply agree, if evidence is no longer what is needed in this hobby - or if we are no longer able to provide it - better quit working on the subject of Third Reich collecting and leave new collectors alone.
I am also sorry if I do not provide sometimes all documentation available but what I confidentially provided in the past to some members by private email was posted later as their own homework. So you will understand I now select what I have to say privately and/or publicly. My research, whatever it could be, is made with my own time and money.

Just only my point and the line of attitude I try to preserve for the best or the worst. Anyone is welcome to differ and I do not think it is rude to do so.
You can count on me, as soon as I have something new and somehow more reliable on my eyes dealing with Assmann SS cap eagles, readers of this thread will be the first to know. In the meantime, an answer to my sole question is this latest post will be definitively appreciated. That is it for now.

Best Regards

[Gary Wood]

"Having stuffs direct from vets and study them?"

Jean Pierre ,
Getting items from vets is not the holly grail as it might seem for many reasons.
did the vet see service during the war or after the war or both and I am talking about the allied and German vets

Sometimes vet pick items afterwards from other sources to add to there collection or to replace badges they remember wearing, then they forget they bought them or had them given, or build them into a story long told and they believe the story themselves or do not tell, also if you asked a vet where and when the items was taken or when he wore them how accurate would that be, now think on that and for all you old timers that have seen service if someone said describe your badges on your uniform and how they were made, or would they be able to tell the difference between different manufacturing technique's used to make them? and here I will give you an example, I once showed an ss vet I knew a BeVo runic collar patch, he said no not original and pointed to a machine embroidered runic and said original, and to cut a long story short, it turns out that is the type he remembered, yet he showed me a picture of himself and from the photo you could see he was wearing a BeVo runic!


I once through an add in a paper whet to a vets house in the UK, he had loads of metal awards, which he brought back, again he said he was a WW2 vet maybe he was maybe he was not he was of the right sort of age, why do I say this because every badge was a reproduction RS reproduction Badge with that horrible clasp

Vets stories can "sometimes" be like the old fishing tale and lets face it again if someone said to you describe your school days something's stick in your mind something's do not (selective memory)

A lot of items that come second and third hand from vets are not what they seem, because this is seen as the ultimate proof of originality by some, for many reasons this seems to be a well used story for many motives

I have looked in your post above what is your question?


I also deal with the former eastern block and the fact neither of the eagles above have been dug up again does not mean anything, it would mean that the deceased guy would have to be buried in his peaked cap!!! and to be in a position where danger was I doubt he would be wearing a visor cap! there are examples, I have seen a one dug set of eagle and tk, which were marked m1/52,

one thing the Internet has done is made the world smaller and this is good, before the net reproduction maker could release items in small amounts in the 4 corners of the world and no alarm bells rang, that is not possible now due to forums like this, as you know when the market gets a flush on 'NEW" items.


I have found that the people who argue the case for a questionable item normally has them in there collection and wants to believe they are real no matter what, then sarcasm creeps in and there are some other's who will accept the general concessus that the item is a fake and move on. But everyone it entitled to there own opinion that is what collecting is opinions what people believe be it right or wrong is entirely up to each individual

I agree with you there have been many mistakes in the book world, but again the book world is also a learning curve, this is true of any reference books be it on German miltaria or anything else, they are compilations of works done in the field previously, these old books are dangerous as once printed they will always be out there, I can think of one now where the author of the book went to a particular outlet and photographed that shops stock that he based his book on and when I hear people say that is a "great book" it makes me cringe. Authors still quote from old sources without as you say checking out what was said was true. And again there are some writing books who have other "motives" and I am sure some of you will know what I mean.

A friend once said to me and this is as true as the day it was said," look at the item that is what you are buying the story is a bonus and free, but sometimes people concentrate on the story and it turns out to be a very expensive story

sorry if this has turned out as a rant
cheers,
Gary
PS and there are some collectors no matter what is proved will not believe c'est la vie,

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello Gary,

There is no rant or bad feelings on my side, just a different opinion. I like evidence backed up with something more than average, and that's it.
I guess if this thread already received over 2800 hits, it means there is people thinking like you and others like me. Don't worry, I do not try to find a winner or a looser, Forums are there for to express deep convictions and this is what we are both doing.

To be back to your last input, I certainly agree with you 100% about items found in vets hands, but it is still something more reliable (after having talked to the person and even if items could be not 100% reliable) that purchasing an item in the open market. Furthermore, it also depends when were obtained those items (fourty years ago or yesterday) and what was knowledge or known fakes at this time. My point was that even this smallest chance is no longer there for new collectors, not to certify anything found in "vets" hands today.
But if one can not rely a bit to vets, can not rely a bit to diggers, can not rely a bit to books and do not accept original documents as a potential evidence, how can one believe his own knowledge?

Anyway, I do no longer want to argue but would like to have, as I said, at least a reply "I" could use to my simple question. I repeat it since you did not understand it:
" There is a SS cap eagle offered for sale in the Assmann catalog, it is a FACT. This eagle has more chances to had been produced by Assmann and not been resale for someone else (this is an assumption but it is the most logical one). I take on collectors having deep knowledge in metallic SS cap eagles that the SS cap eagle marked RZM 155/36 SS is original (it is again an assumption but I trust your words), I also take on collectors having deep knowledge in metallic SS cap eagles that the SS cap eagle marked RZM M1/17 are NOT original (it is an assumption but I trust your words). I can not see anywhere else there was SS cap eagles other than the one marked RZM 155/36 SS (original or fakes) but I can see there is a lot of other SS cap eagles made by other makers marked with their own M1/xx number (both originals and fakes). So, my question is, where are/how were marked SS cap eagles made by Assmann after the year 1936 if M1/17 is not an original marking and there is no 155/xx neither? Can not be a marking xx/yy (yy been year between and including 1937 and 1940 and xx been any number other than 155) since there is no records shown here. So, where are Assmann SS cap eagles, one of the major German maker of metallic goods during WWII? This is my only question now.

Best Regards

[Gary Wood]

Jean Pierre,
I think I understand your question, I have not seen a 155 with any other date that I can remember although a friend say's he has seen them with a 38 date but until I see one that is just hot air,

Did they just keep using this die (36) to stamp them out, for example the 499/41 tk, there is no 499/42 so did they just make them for one year and stop or did they continue making them with the same stampings, I would say the latter as this is one of the most common encountered TK's I have come across,

There is an eagle that has surfaced that is marked 499/42 with also m1/72 recently as I have not examined it personally and it is an oddity I will hope that at sometime in the future it will be handled by an advanced collector an opinions given
however I have never seen or heard of a 499/41 eagle to match the 499/41 TK again or a tk marked 499/42 to match the eagle marked 499/42 why? you would think logically that they would be made as a set

I am afraid more questions than answers,
cheers,
Gary

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello Gary,
We are now on positive tracks I guess.
To your first question it is very unlikely a maker will save its die for later use if the marking which is part of the die changes.
Dies were very cheap to produce, and were changed pretty often to keep the quality on top (personnal interview with several makers, or familly members of makers still alive performed by my German friend Christian in those latest years). So, I do not believe so.
There is also the lack of production between 1936 and 1941 (date where we have tracks of new RZM/SS contract numbers been associated with SS cap eagles production), which is not logical for a major player. And even if it is still a possibility, I do not believe he resale for others.
This is why, in my mind and without any evidence - just a personnal feeling, I am still expecting that someday we will have evidence Assmann made many SS cap eagles marked M1/17, just because there is already such pattern followed by other major makers.

On another level, I just have one SS cap eagle and one SS skull. Both are coming from my own familly (taken in summer 1944 in Provence after the American invasion in this area). My folks never have an interest for such "junk" and never bought or received anything after the war (they were just without interest for this kind of things), so I guess I can rely on what they told me. Most of what they took was worn after the war, and the rest was in a box with other souvenirs. I got it only in the early 80's. These are locked in my showcase along with SS buckles (you don't get rid of familly things), but I promise I will post them since the eagle is marked M1/72 if I recall correctly.
The skull is a Deschler.

Best Regards

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

I forgot to add that Asssmann had his number 155 for the years 1937, 1939 and 1940 (considering we are talking only about years between 1936 and 1941), and produced SS items stamped with it for each of these years. I do not have records for 1938 or 1941. So, if he did not use it, it could be for the same reason his competitors did not use their. The best example been Overhoff - M1/24 - who had his number 36 for 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939 and 1940 but apparently did not use it on his SS cap eagle production: only M1/24.
So once again, another logical issue which makes me believe the M1/17 marking been the most logical marking for SS cap eagles made by Assmann, and once again without guarantee but we can't totally avoid other facts.

[Gary Wood]

"I am still expecting that someday we will have evidence Assmann made many SS cap eagles marked M1/17, just because there is already such pattern followed by other major makers. "

Jean Pierre,
Maybe, But I have yet to see one that does not have the same trait's associated with the fake m1/17 eagles and TK, but you learn quick never say never
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

RZM,
could you check your contract number again, are you sure it is not 475
cheers
Gary

[RzM]

Hi Gary,

My mistake the eagle is marked "SS 475/42". I don't have a scanner, and the digital camera I have is outdated.

John

[SScollector]

Hi Jean!
Do you, (or anyone else), know what Overhoff's SS contract number was?
Thanks! Chris

[Martin Stiles]

M1/17

Hi,GARY, Please explain / illustrate the traits shown in fake M1/17
eagles, I would be gratful.
Cheers
Martin.

[Gary Wood]

chris,
for what belt buckles or cap insignia as I have yet to see Overhoff's contract number as mentioned above on a eagle or tk,
cheers,
gary

[Martin Stiles]

The following is my expereince:-
Metal cap insignia marked....
ZIMMERMANN M1/72 Eagles, common ,skulls never seen one.
ZIMMERMANN 499/ Eagles, seen one only, skulls common
DESCHLER M1/52 Eagles, seen one only , skulls common
DESCHLER 254/ Eagles, never seen one, skulls rare.
ASSMANN M1/17 Eagles Fake only ? skulls Fake only ?
ASSMANN 155/ Eagles rare , skulls never seen one
OVERHOFF M1/24 Eagles never seen one, skulls common
OVERHOFF 36/ Eagles never seen one,skulls never seen one

Questions arising....
If M1/17 is only fake....
Who did make the missing eagles ?

Of the above recognised large producers why was
Assmans out put so low?

As Gary pointed out you would logically think they
would produce as sets, however observation seems
to be the opposite !
I would like to hear if others expereinces differ, do
others agree that M1/52 the most common skull ?
And more importantly what do others think the most
common eagle is?

kind regards

Martin

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Just to add something to the above thought, for what it worth since I can rely only on what is posted in this thread to bring my own common sense (and just common sense - no guarantee).

In this list (the one starting the whole thread), since it was a list dealing with numbers, I did not see any "Ges.Gesch." (Patent protected) marked skulls and/or eagles. So, I don't know if there is some SS cap eagles marked that way or not, but for sure (and this is guaranteed) there is some SS skulls. So, if skulls were, at least for a period of time, under patent, the righteous holder of such patent could grant rights to produce (under royalties paid to him) the makers of his own choice or keep the production exclusive to him. Production restricted to some makers, including major ones, could be the result of various reasons, including personal relations. This could be valid until the rights are returning to the Party, or the period of such exclusive rights terminated. In such case it would be in turn to the Party to select who will be granted as maker, or select an appropriate number of makers to fill an order needed to be delivered at time.
Always keep in mind that the RS-SS placed the order, but it was the RZM charge to contact makers to fill this order, and makers could not produce a single item more than what was originally ordered.
If SS cap eagle were not patent protected, even during a period of time, it is logical to find them made by different makers than skulls. The only common factor, and here again it is only a logical point not a guarantee, the total amount of skulls produced by all makers would match the total amount of SS cap eagles been produced by all makers since one could not produce more than ordered.

To be back to Assmann, there was a last possibility for lack of his SS cap eagles other than marked RZM 155/36 SS (still assuming this marking is legitimate) and/or his lack of skulls, but unfortunately this option is not my favorite even if it can perfectly be true.
By 1936 Assmann is granted rights to produce a certain amount of SS cap eagles and fill this order, totally or partially. Depending of the results of this order, it will be up to Assmann and the RZM to set or terminate future orders of such items. If quality or delay of delivery was not appropriate for the RZM, it could terminate the use of Assmann to manufacture such items (and continue with him for what was more satisfactory). On the other end, Assmann could easily quit applying to manufacture items which could reveal to be more expensive to produce than actually sold. Price paid was set by the RZM, we can't forget it. Assmann could have expected to make profit on those first SS cap eagles and found out they were more expensive than expected. At anytime a maker could refuse an order and so quit manufacturing items, so Assmann could have decided to drop manufacturing SS cap eagles for the future (past 1936). It could be also very logical (not a guarantee) since after number 24096 (1936 and so probably Nickel Silver eagle) there is no other SS cap eagle listed in Assmann 1939 catalogs (usually when a same item but manufactured in a different metal was introduced, it was with another number).

So, other thoughts...

By the way RZM 52 marked skulls are more than probably Deschler.

[SScollector]

Gary,
I wasn't necessarily talking about one or the other.
I was just wondering if Overhoff had only one SS contact #
(It must be 36 as you see this on many SS officer's belt buckles but I was a little confused because some early SS officer's belt buckles are marked 35/36 and normally, the SS contract # came
before the year).

Anyway, I would agree with Martin that M1/52 skulls and eagles
were the most common of the four makers, (probably because Deschler was a very well known company and made a lot).
However, none of them are common by any means
and Deschler skulls are faked a lot, along with the others.
Also, I believe that a couple of the manufactures made only eagles or skulls and not both because nobody has ever seen an Overhoff eagle or an Augustin Hicke skull but I have been seen these two together on period hats.
Augustin Hicke was M1/167, (If you remember the photograph
Gary posted for me), and I know that this eagle is real because a friend of a friend of mine pulled it off a hat and brought it back from the war. I also personally believe that the "S. P. 40" code
used on skulls belonged to Overhoff because they look just like
the M1/24 skulls.

So, here is my personal list for what it's worth and some of you may disagree and please say so if you do because we are all trying to learn and there is always room for more opinions and that it all we have when there is a lack of documentation:

Deschler: eagles "RZM M1/52" -- skulls
"RZM D.S.M. Ges.Gesch.", "RZM 52", "RZM M1/52", "RZM 254/42"

Zimmermann: eagles "RZM M1/72", "RZM SS 499/42 M1/72"
-- skulls "RZM 499/41"

Assmann: eagles "RZM SS 155/36" -- skulls "Ges.Gesch."

Overhoff: eagles (none) -- skulls "RZM M1/24", "S. P. 40"

Augustin Hicke: eagles "RZM M1/167" -- skulls (none)

You guys let me know what you think.
Thanks! Chris