a short note on cxn serial numbers on Uboat binoculars

[MrZeiss]

Cxn

Two items of information.
1)The cxn large 7x50 had a large washer at the end of the bending bar that was black. On the blc 7x50 the same washer was green.

2) The cxn 8x60 upper plates (with the writing on) had what I can only describe as rough paint brush marks.

And a remark on the Kriegsmarine N numbers. A list can easily be produced (at least on Zeiss binoculars) But what use can that be put to?

What I do not know is whether Zeiss was given its own N number range and let's say beh was given its own range. Or was there a single N number range with allocations within it to each manufacturer.

[Mikedenmark]

I think the N numbers were used for so long a time that they must have originated in the kriegsmarine.

Meaning someone found out Dienstelle so and so need 100 binoculars. Then N-numbers for that use were decided, and only after that decision, was the contact taken with a suitable factory, who got an order for 100 with N-numbers so and so.

This does not mean those specific 100 binoculars could not be part of a larger frame order.
If, for instance, Leizt were ordered to deliver 5000 7x50 binoculars each month, then the specific markings could be forwarded from the navy as the need arose.

At least that would make the ordering and deliveries fairly flexible.

I believe the ordering system was a combination of major frame orders for large numbers of standard models and individual orders for special use.

With Leitz that meant large numbers of ordinary 7x50 porro 2, with, and without, the rubber protection.
And smaller runs of our oddities, which we cherish today.

The Zeiss archive may have such orders for their products. But it´s like crime fighting in Chicago. You can hit all the drawings, photo´s and tech specifications, but to catch the big fish, you have to go to accounting. Al capone was caught for Tax evation, never for murder.... and seen from the collectors perspective, accounting is so booooring.
For example, Accounting would have registered all sales.

The files will hold only numbers delivered, and money paid. That could provide a framework, where factory records may be missing.


The N - number list I heard of, should, as far as I understand, include information about which binocular went to what boat.
If true, then it must be a very large list.

I think that one day, if an N-list never emerge, then an N-list of Zeiss binoculars may give some clues as to when and where different batches of N-numbers saw use.
Running such data up against known N-numbers on other Bino makers numbers might also give some kind of clues as to issue dates and production years.

[Sgt Bilko]

The N - number list I heard of, should, as far as I understand, include information about which binocular went to what boat.



As a collector I'd like to see that list. But in truth I can see no point in a manufacturing system which goes into such detail.

More likely the "N" numbered binos were ordered in batches and, when the binos were issued by naval stores, details such as which vessel may have been recorded.

Is this the type of list you mean Mike? If so - then the possibility exists that naval stores lists could appear for all KM binos -"N" numbered or not.

[Mikedenmark]

The N list would of course be from the german navy.
The companies just deliver a batch of binoculars with the engravings as specified.

I have seen how the danish army orders Busch galilean from the factory, then proceeds to have them engraved in Denmark with the specified numbers, before distributing them among the troops.

Only possible difference is where the engraving takes place. For prismatic binoculars the engraving is easier to make at the factory.
Too big a chance to take, that some private at the arsenal neatly engrave 100 binoculars so deep, they have to be returned for repair before use.

[Michael Downey]

Updated april 5th, 2015.
two new 7x50.

8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 20 found

426503 Ebay nov. 2014
426531 Ebay feb 2013
426553
426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
426560
426579
426586
426590 "added after the original posting" ebay sale january 2013
426594
426616 ebay jan 2013. 616 may be 516. Or even 425516. Hard to see on the photo´s. 6616 chosen as most likely.
426628
426630
426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
426658
426668
426669
426678
426690 Ebay.com may 2014.
426713 Seen in Australia.
426714

456942 No photo of this serial number has been seen. It was reported only. May be a misreading of 426642. Or, now we have seen several 7x50 below 457xxx, in fact a 7x50.

7x50 Uboat, 16 found

456864
456879
456887 (NEW )
456889
456902
456942 See the note above, at the end of the 8x60 list.
456996 (NEW)
457001
457002
457086
457128
457239
457241
457262
457263
457281

.
.


Here is my serial list for cxn 7x50 and 8x60 u-boats that may add a few additional reportings to Mike's list. For what it is worth I only record serial numbers from actual photos of the serial number concerned.

.
.

[Mikedenmark]

Updated jan. 7th, 2016.

4 new 8x60.
2 new 7x50.

Thank you Michael Downey.

I also prefer to see a photo, and over time I have omitted 3-4 candidates, where the info on the serial number appeared untrustworthy, and wasn´t backed up by a photo.
I do usually accept serial numbers given by auction houses, unless they err in other details as well. A cxp marked 8x60, serial number 425123 would not make it to the list. Unless they back it with a photo. Like when the 3rd and 4th codes on german LP42 flareguns made their appearance. Before that, only euh and wa was known. Or when an auction house sold a zeiss 8x60 with som russian letters. I was incredulous, and asked for photo´s. It was a 1939 russian issue of the 8x60. So even auction houses may have gotten things right, even though it may sound impossible.

The 426250 is so far from the others, I could wish to see a photo?
If this was scientific measurements, that would be the one to be omitted due to evident measurement error.


8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 27 found

426250 MD (NEW)
426503 Ebay nov. 2014
426520 Austria
426526 MD (NEW)
426531 Ebay feb 2013
426553
426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
426560
426579
426586
426590 "added after the original posting" ebay sale january 2013
426594
426599 MD (NEW)
426616 Confirmed by MD, so probably right.
426628
426630
426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
426658
426668
426669
426672 Seeger´s new book 2015
426678
426690 Ebay.com may 2014.
426708 MD (NEW)
426713 Seen in Australia.
426714
426718

456942 No photo of this serial number has been seen. It was reported only. May be a misreading of 426642. Or, now we have seen several 7x50 below 457xxx, in fact a 7x50.

7x50 Uboat, 21 found

456864
456879
456887
456889
456902
456917
456942 See the note above, at the end of the 8x60 list.
456996
457001
457002
457086
457114 MD (NEW)
457128
457189 Seeger´s new book 2015
457193 Seeger´s new book 2015
457239
457241
457242 MD (NEW)
457262
457263
457281

[Michael Downey]

Here is a scan of 4126250. As can be seen the image is quite fuzzy. The digits are not at all clear. I was given the serial number by the owner. But on closer inspection it is doubtful that the serial number I was given is correct. So it seems your scientific hunch is correct.

One more admission. New entry 426599 that I gave and which was entered on your revised list is incorrect. It is meant to be a reference to 426559 in Dr. Seeger's book.

So the list shrinks by two entries.


.

[Michael Downey]

Here is some scans of the other two cxn 8x60 u-boats that are newly listed:

[Michael Downey]

here are scans of the cxn 7x50 u-boats newly listed

[Mikedenmark]

2 8x60 has been removed.

I think the 426250 may in fact be 426520. To me it looks very much like a 2 as the second last digit. And a 5 as the third last is quite possible. Then the 250 was simply a typing error, and should be 520.
If that is the case, then it is allready in the list.

Edit. I did some work on the photo, contrasting and so on. The digit 5 is 100% correct. I do see a 2 digit, but not so I would grade that 100%. The jpg compression has hit the area with the 2 harder than that with the 5. The last digit is undisputed a 0.


8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 25 found

426503 Ebay nov. 2014
426520 Austria
426526 MD (NEW)
426531 Ebay feb 2013
426553
426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
426560
426579
426586
426590 "added after the original posting" ebay sale january 2013
426594
426616 Confirmed by MD, so probably right.
426628
426630
426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
426658
426668
426669
426672 Seeger´s new book 2015
426678
426690 Ebay.com may 2014.
426708 MD (NEW)
426713 Seen in Australia.
426714
426718

456942 No photo of this serial number has been seen. It was reported only. May be a misreading of 426642. Or, now we have seen several 7x50 below 457xxx, in fact a 7x50.

7x50 Uboat, 21 found

456864
456879
456887
456889
456902
456917
456942 See the note above, at the end of the 8x60 list.
456996
457001
457002
457086
457114 MD (NEW)
457128
457189 Seeger´s new book 2015
457193 Seeger´s new book 2015
457239
457241
457242 MD (NEW)
457262
457263
457281

[MrZeiss]

N numbers

Dear Mike Denmark
I had a look in my database of Zeiss numbers.
These numbers (initially N and then a number but later N Nr and a number) started approximately with binocular 1652000 (Septar type) and continued up to 1818669 (N 6120) (Again a Septar type)
The first N Nr 7638 is recorded on 1891251
There is a total absence of N Nr between 11000 and 13000. There is also a total absence between 18000 and 35000.
The series then resumes at N Nr 35030 (2077393) and ends at approximately 42404.
Thus Zeiss produced approximately 23500 N binoculars and someone else (presumably Leitz) the remaining 19000.
I am pretty sure that the 8x60's had their own mini series of N numbers.
With the exception of a tiny minority N Nr were allocated to Zeiss and not blc binoculars.
I have no details of bmk or Leitz / beh N Nr.

[Mikedenmark]

Just a short reply for now.
The N-numbers may have seen use on other items than binoculars.
Wall clocks, pocket watches and barometers comes to mind.
Aerometers and basically any instrument used for signalling or weather measurement could be included.
Many coastal post had weather measurements as part of their daily routines.
I repeat the MAY.

I recall having seen wall clocks and pocket watches with N numbers.
I have no way to tell if the N numbersystem was one long list, or if they had N numbers for each type of equipment.
There are low 4 digit N numbers on some Reichswehr bino´s. Like: M 1234 N.

[Mikedenmark]

I just saw this one. N numbered wall clock.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-N...oAAOSwUdlWey7H

Update.
I made a quick googling...

Wall clocks:

190 N/G
355 N/G
497 N/G
2725 N
4019 N
5030 N
7671 N
13144 N
14865 N
15028 N
15365 N
17822 N

The G code has been documented now in a german book. Out of print.
( I think it means 1935. At least G coded lugers were made in 1935. K coded lugers are from 1934. As far as I know, only G and K were ever used.)
I am still looking for a copy of that book.

I know there isn´t enough clocks for this list to really be of significance.
These N numbers fall in the same ranges as known binoculars. ( I wonder if radio sets may be known with N numbers. ??)
But untill someone look deep into the Nachrichten archives, or come up with documentation otherwise, I still think it means Nachrichten.

This guy is approaching the same issues, only with clocks.
http://www.knirim.de/
(another very much wanted set of books. Expensive, whimper)

[11C]

I just saw this one. N numbered wall clock.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-N...oAAOSwUdlWey7H

Most ship's clocks you see will have N numbers, but that clock has had the eagle and "M" removed. The N referred to the area of operation. (North Sea) And sadly, those N numbers are not cross-referrenced to ship's identities.

[Mikedenmark]

Quote
And sadly, those N numbers are not cross-referrenced to ship's identities.
End Quote

Rumours will know an N list do exist. Owner of said list wants a fortune.


There seems to be data on pocket watches delivered from Switzerland to the kriegsmarine. At least several of those are in the range 9000-9999.
BeobachtungsUhr aka observation watch. How one differ between a pocket watch for an artillery officer and one for someone taking down signals, I don´t know.
Artillery officers uses a watch to count time from firing a cannon to expected hit. Signal personnel must have a watch to add timegroups to signals.
I though the B-watches were for the artillery, but the last hour of googling makes me doubting this.

Someone bombed Deutsche Seewarte in hamburg in 1943, Archives lost. DS was testing instruments and clocks. The russians ran away with what was left in Saxony in 1945.
But there seems to be info on orders from the Kriegsmarine to Switzerland for their watches.