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a short note on cxn serial numbers on Uboat binoculars

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    #16
    Hi Stew. Interesting photo. :-)

    I found footage on the web dated march 29th 45 where the Leitz factory can be seen. Most of the windows has been damaged. On this photo, someone have at least swept the floor. And it has been taken almost 5 weeks after the US army arrived.
    According to the german Wetzlar article on Wikipedia, the town was in the american zone, but had french military present too.

    If it IS Leitz, when was it taken, ( correction, may 2nd. 45, got it) and what are those models they are producing.
    I see sloped shoulders on the prism houses at the far end of the table, (not to mention the colour) and incredible long objective barrels on the binoculars closest to the photographer.
    Doesn´t look like something I know. 8x56 perhaps ?
    Only thing that look "normal" are the 2 lines of 10 porro II at the back of the table.

    Who is the civilian? Ernest Leitz III ? I haven´t found a photo of him on the web. But he would fit the age.

    And there must have been at least 23 more frames on that film. I wonder where they went.

    I think one needs to see the 2-3 hidden years. Those from summer 1945, to about 1948.
    In 1945, basically chaos, in 1948 a new beginning well under way.
    But in between is a difficult period to look into. The russians did not start immediately with dismantling factories. They had to restore order first, then attempt to start production, and when that failed, or was given up for political reasons, then the exodus to Russia began. Taken the russian system into account, I could guess that their archives have a lot about this too. As far as I know, they are not open, yet.

    3 years of which little is known, and everyone had just shown what could be achieved in 3 years with the workforce on battlefields and things blowing up at random.

    A very interesting photo. Thank you for sharing.
    Last edited by Mikedenmark; 01-09-2013, 04:15 PM.

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      #17
      http://www.amazon.de/Wetzlar-Karsten...767061&sr=8-15

      This book might be interesting. I have a couple of other books by this author, and they are very detailed. I sort of let this one pass, as it looked more like about local history, than about technical subjects.
      Porezag has made some nice finds regarding V2 and other weird german technology. He even managed to find some secret rockets, I had never heard of, forgotten in a forest. ( I think that was in 2002, believe it or not. Local museum received one too.)

      Another Wetzlar company:
      http://www.buderus-steel.com/english/237_ENG_HTML.htm

      Comment


        #18
        The big ones at the front look like their 60mm models manufactured in 8X, 10X, 12X and 15X. But those ones in the middle are a mystery to me. I've never seen or heard of a Leitz with sloping prisms shoulders like that.

        Comment


          #19
          I forgot about the 8x60 marked beh. The photo suggest that they were in production in 1945.
          I have seen some on the web with serials around 345xxx. Even though they are found with cases marked 1944, people claim them to be from 1941-43.

          I could guess that when the factory restarted operation, it would be easier if only center focus models were produced. Center focus is not really waterproof, and hence, easier to claim as a civilian item only.

          I have found center focus models from around 422xxx, bur I haven´t gone deep into all this.
          I did note that Leica camera collectors are debating if any leica with serial number below 400xxx was made postwar or not. Early postwar Leica´s seems to have serials below 400xxx.
          The camera´s have an independent serial range. Of note is, that the factory records for the camera´s have been made available. Including deliveries to the Wehrmacht.
          So not all factory records has been lost.
          Last edited by Mikedenmark; 01-10-2013, 10:43 AM.

          Comment


            #20
            more obervations on E. Leitz/beh serial numbers

            Hi Mikedenmark and Wpgbinocular,
            re 8x60's - I was looking closely at 2x recent Ebay offerings of E.Leitz,Wetzlar marked 8x60 Maroctits :

            Details - E. Leitz,Wetzlar 8x60 Maroctit serial #'s 436676 and 436612.( both centre focus civilian spec) .One of these 436676 was offered on UK Ebay the other was US Ebay(I bought this set). Both are late war serial numbers ( I believe that WW2 production finished at about 477204 with the beh/E Leitz double marked series that often included reticles in the left side ocular )
            Both 436676 and 436612 Maroctits came with Dienstglas eyecup caps and button flaps as per military spec and the button flaps were both marked "beh 43". They both came in civilian binocular cases. # 436612 has coated optics .

            In passing I have a record of a 7x50 Marsept ,E.Leitz ,Wetzler .The serial number 473153. This set has military specs (individual eye focus ) as per the 1940's Finnish binocular contracts.
            The late war E.Leitz/beh binoculars and their serial numbers have intriqued me for quite some time and I have an extensive record of these sourced from Ebay offerings.

            Comment


              #21
              E .Leitz ,Wetzlar .8x60 Marotit #436676

              in case you wonder what a 8x60 Maroctit looks like -
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #22
                8x60 maroctit (cont.)

                top left prism cover : ( and sorry we have got a bit off the topic of cxn serial numbers....)
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #23
                  I agree, we get off the subject. So this is VERY bad of me:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfN3mx_ZQN8

                  I like that part with the engraving. And from a personal childhood experience, I can confirm that all those driving band for the machines are rather noisy!!!

                  Have fun. The lenses must be for binoculars, but why they have a soccer goal standing in the middle of the Lahr is not readily understood.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    An update, see the original start for comments.

                    6x30 bakelite: 24 found

                    380993 Lowest observed serial number
                    384156 bright red bakelite
                    422489 bright red bakelite
                    426219
                    428628
                    711045 bright red bakelite
                    7????? Unknown, I disregarded this one as wrong, untill I decidedly saw the one in the 7xxxxx range. I could not find it again. It was on a french site.

                    8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 12 found

                    426553
                    426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
                    426560
                    426586
                    426590 ebay sale january 2013
                    426616 ebay. jan 2013
                    426628
                    426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
                    426658
                    426678
                    426713 Seen in Australia.
                    426714

                    7x50 Uboat 3 found

                    457002
                    457128
                    457241

                    10x50 Porro I

                    461596

                    Comment


                      #25
                      cxn

                      Added CXN in my collection

                      8x60 commanders glass 426669

                      7x50 uboat 457262
                      7050 uboat 457263

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Thank you for the addition. Here is an update.

                        6x30 bakelite: 24 found

                        380993 Lowest observed serial number
                        384156 bright red bakelite
                        422489 bright red bakelite
                        426219
                        428628
                        711045 bright red bakelite
                        7????? Unknown, I disregarded this one as wrong, untill I decidedly saw the one in the 7xxxxx range. I could not find it again. It was on a french site.

                        8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 14 found

                        426531 Ebay feb 2013
                        426553
                        426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
                        426560
                        426586
                        426590 "added after the original posting" ebay sale january 2013
                        426616 ebay jan 2013. 616 may be 516. Or even 425516. Hard to see on the photo´s. 6616 chosen as most likely.
                        426628
                        426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
                        426658
                        426669
                        426678
                        426713 Seen in Australia.
                        426714

                        7x50 Uboat 5 found

                        457002
                        457128
                        457241
                        457262
                        457263

                        10x50 Porro I

                        461596

                        There are some comments left out here in the update. Look at earlier entries for the comments.
                        Last edited by Mikedenmark; 03-17-2013, 06:18 PM.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Another update.
                          Only one more 7x50, I am afraid.

                          6x30 bakelite: 25 found


                          380210 Lowest observed serial number
                          380993
                          384156 bright red bakelite
                          422489 bright red bakelite
                          426219
                          428628
                          711045 bright red bakelite
                          7????? Unknown, I disregarded this one as wrong, untill I decidedly saw the one in the 7xxxxx range. I could not find it again. It was on a french site.

                          8x60 Uboot (kommandantenglas) 17 found

                          426531 Ebay feb 2013
                          426553
                          426559 Seeger grey book, page 384
                          426560
                          426586
                          426590 "added after the original posting" ebay sale january 2013
                          426616 ebay jan 2013. 616 may be 516. Or even 425516. Hard to see on the photo´s. 6616 chosen as most likely.
                          426628

                          426630
                          426655 Last 3 digits uncertain. Might be disregarded.
                          426658

                          426668
                          426669
                          426678
                          426713 Seen in Australia.
                          426714

                          456942 No photo of this serial number has been seen. It was reported only. May be a misreading of 426642.

                          7x50 Uboat 6 found

                          457002
                          457128

                          457239
                          457241
                          457262
                          457263

                          10x50 Porro I

                          461596

                          There are some comments left out here in the update. Look at earlier entries for the comments.
                          Last edited by Mikedenmark; 05-01-2013, 02:29 PM.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            New cxn 7x50

                            Here is a link to an image of my cxn 7x50 serial number.

                            https://www.dropbox.com/s/ge0b6b56mdmhg8x/CXN.jpg

                            I would like to find out more about them as they have been in my family since about 1945. I will post further details in the main optics forum in the next few days in the hope that someone can help.

                            Dave

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Incredible. One below 457000. 456864.
                              So much for a production run starting at 457000.

                              When I get a couple more new additions, I will post an updated list.

                              Thank You very much for sharing this.

                              Unfortunately, it will be difficult to say much about the whereabouts of your example. Late war production, but could have ended the war anywhere.
                              In this listing of serial numbers you have an all new low.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Cxn 7x50

                                Hi Mikedenmark,

                                My Dad has recently been researching a pair of U-boat binoculars passed on to him from his uncle, which is how we came across this forum. They are cxn 7x50, and the serial number is 456902, which I thought may interest you as I see you were surprised at serial numbers below 457000. I can post some photos tonight if you would be interested?

                                There are also various numbers and figures on the inside of the cap - do these have any significance?

                                We would really like to find out more about these binoculars, as although knowing they were U boat binoculars, we knew nothing else about them. Do you know of any sources for further information?

                                Jill

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