Graf Spee threads

[John R.]

I hope Norm will have the time to do some comparisons but to summarize what I am looking at:

1. The Markus/Dani cotton GS tally is the same as the John Robinson GS Uruguay cotton tally and the MEHT tally.

2. The Lakeside Trader tally and the just sold ebay GS are different than the above tallies in the space between the letters for one thing. Those tallies show letters much closer together than the tallies in 1. above as can be readily seen and there are also some differences in the font itself.

Markus and Bernd Wedeking both believe the tallies in 2. are period but from a different manufacturer than the tallies in 1. Bernd has stated that his opinion of period originality is based on the images provided but a final test would to be to feel the tally in hand and compare that with other cotton examples as a final test.

The purpose of this discussion is not to "prove" anything with the ebay tally as it cannot be proven one way or the other but to document this style tally in our archives for reference in case a collector encounters another.

John

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I've studied the obverse images some more and have some observations to add regarding shrinkage. It appears that not only are we seeing two different font weave structures here but also differing amounts of shrinkage from washing.

By scaling the images to the same ribbon height we can judge the differences in font width and spacing.

For future reference I will refer to the cotton Graf Spee tallies like John's with provenance as "Type 1" and the type from eBay and Lakesidetrader as "Type 2".

First, when you compare John's and Dani's "Type 1" tallies we see that they have identical weave structure to one another but differing amounts of shrinkage with John's more worn example from Uruguay having greater shrinkage.

Second, when you compare the two "Type 2" tallies we've seen so far (Lakesidetrader and eBay) you can see that they have identical weave structure to one another, but the Lakesidetrader (which was cut off and sewn to a display at some point) appears to have shrunk considerably, presumably from washing, making the letters and spacing between them all proportionately narrower.

[Norm F]

And now you see John's "Type 1" tally compared to the two separate "Type 2" tallies.

As you can see, when you compare John's to the eBay example there's a large disparity in font width but when compared to the considerably more shrunken Lakesidetrader example the font sizes are closer to one another. It's still easy to tell them apart from the different weave structure (note especially the shapes of the black spaces within the "a" and the "f", and the big difference in the spacing between words).

This should be a good source for future reference.

[John R.]

Markus,

You were the first to point out that the German KM regulations described what we call "cotton" as "artificial silk".

What was meant by artificial silk? Normally, this means rayon although today it includes many other materials than rayon, such as bamboo (used in rugs for example as a substitute for silk).

Norm's comparisons seem to show shrinkage with these artificial silk tallies, only explained by the letter threads shrinking. I do not think the black material can shrink as that is a synthetic material, probably rayon, but I am not sure.

Could you elaborate a bit about the material used for these artificial silk/cotton tallies?

John

[Norm F]

While waiting for Markus reply, just thought I'd mention that I checked with a weaver, and when a fabric is take off the loom and washed, typically shrinkage occurs more in the direction of the warp than the weft which in the case of a tally means more shrinkage along the length of the tally than the height -- exactly what we're seeing.

Whether cotton or mercerized cotton of some sort, I don't doubt that Kunstseide tallies (and even Metallfaden tallies for that matter) could shrink along their length and the extent would depend upon the frequency and methods by which the washing occurred (temperature, drying conditions etc.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Norm, I would like you to ask your weaver if the compression would only be over the length of the name on a tally. So if a tally was 100 cms and the name only 22 cms (as the case here), total length compression might only be .7%-1% or so.

I think I know the weaver, so I fully trust the reply!!!!

John

[Norm F]

I'll check with her but I think I know the answer to that one. I think the entire length of the tally should shrink (again, a variable amount depending on handling over its lifetime). In the case of a Metallfaden tally, the shrinkage would be solely from the black ribbon and this might be less over the lettered area since metal doesn't shrink (although the metal threads will still be pulled closer together due to shrinkage in the intervening black threads); for a Kunstseide tally shrinkage would be in both the black ribbon and in the thread of the gold lettering - so potentially a greater amount of shrinkage could be seen.

Weavers have to account for shrinkage all the time in their projects, e.g. if you're weaving a place mat and, depending on the materials and tightness of weave, expect 10% shrinkage in the warp and 5% shrinkage in the weft when taken off the loom and washed, then you set up your project in the loom correspondingly larger to account for that and still end up with a place mat instead of a coaster!

Knowing all this, I bet someone with a large collection with multiple tallies in different states of wear could verify that they see differences in the width of the lettered portions, even with the same weave structure. It's just been subtle enough that nobody's bothered to comment on it before now.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

What is the material of the black ribbon?

[Norm F]

What is the material of the black ribbon?

Good question. I would assume that too is cotton or Kunstseide (but a much tighter ply then the gold lettering) since silk would be expensive? Markus?

Best regards,
---NOrm

[Marine HJ]

Hi Norm & John,

great conversation and work between you both. I have contacted the seller of the ebay GS in the meantime and asked her kindly to get in touch with me. My plan is to get to know the contact details of the new owner. I then hope to convince him to send me his new tally across to me (if German or European citizen) or to John (if US citizen) for close "in-hand" examination. Or if he lives closeby, then I could also drive across to the new owner.

Before we get led in the possibly wrong "stretch" direction give me a chance to think "loud" about the effects of an angled taken picture in regard of scaling the same: if I take a photo from one single letter of a tally and I position the camera slightly "up" or "down", I keep the horizontal dimension the same while the vertical becomes is less as more angle is applied (even further upwards or downwards), correct?

If I now take this photo and scale it to the same vertical height of another letter of a different tally, I also enlarge the horizontal dimension.

Or am I misled?

In my opinion, the original photo of the ebay GS, which was used in Norm's comparison (posts 36 and 37), has been taken from a considerable angle and therefore seems to be very stretched when scaling it.

Rgds

Dani

[Norm F]

Yes indeed, photo angle plays a role, as does the camera lens itself, but even so there must be a stretch factor. I suspect in John's HJ tally comparison, it was imaged with the same equipment at the same angle, and even so it appears to have shrunk in the lengthwise direction.

Even "pre-washed" garments have the potential to shrink further under adverse conditions so there's no reason for tallies to be immune from the process.

But that's only a side issue in the discussion of the "Type 2" eBay tally, and doesn't play a role in the consideration of authenticity. Regardless of shrinkage differences, it has a very different font structure and word spacing from the "Type 1".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Buckeru]

Hello guys

Look here is another one. I found it in an attic cleaning a week ago.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mutzenband-Kr...kAAOSw3mpXLvf2

best buckeru

[John R.]

Not the same. Yours is a period gold wire example. Nice find. John

[Buckeru]

Hello

Ok, thanks. I got a few "sell it now".. questions..
What is the price for such a piece like mine?

Best Buckeru

[John R.]

Well, I would not have listed the tally for auction but as a Buy it Now. The valuation of this tally is of course highly subjective and it has some wear and tear issues. I guess I would value it at 100-125 euros, more to the low side of that range, assuming it will not break apart any further, for now.

You need to photograph the ends (the tips of the tally on each side to show the diagonal cut) and especially any rips and tears. These tallies are very fragile when the rips start and if it falls apart, I put the value at something like 50 euros max.

Unfortunately, the ribbon, if not stored well, will disintegrate.

For this auction, I would not end it early with a "Buy it Now" and let the auction run its course. You may make more or less than my range of course at the last second as Snipe bids go in. Hopefully for you there will be some.