Graf Spee threads

[John R.]

The issue is the reverse Markus, can you compare that with the ebay example?

Posted again here.

The thread looks very bright and shiny. Maybe due to the flash.

John

[CSForrester]

Sorry, i have no pics from the reverse, but i will do the experiment at the weekend with a normal "Kriegsmarine" tally i still own.
Photo with flash form the side and scan from vertical oberse with corrected light and correct white-tone.
Or you can try it yourself ......
I think the optical effect is a result of the perspective and light .....

Regards
Markus

[Norm F]

From the obverse, Markus' example is more like m-e-h-t's from the other thread and different from the ebay type.

In the comparison it's easy to tell that the ebay tally has wider letters and less space between words than the other two; despite less space between words the entire name occupies a longer length of the tally due to the slightly wider font. The tiny differences in letter spacing between Markus' and m-e-h-t's can be attributed to tolerances in the shrinking/stretch of the ribbon, whereas the ebay tally is something quite different.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Marine HJ]

Hi folks,

I have bought Markus' GS tally a few years ago. I also have another cotton (artificial silk) GS tally. Both are 99% identical and far from the one currently on ebay. I have very strong doubts about the ebay tally, which is i.m.o. identical to the Lakeside trader tally.
What should make one suspicious is, when one particular variation pops up only in a short time period and never had the 71 years before. Although not in large numbers but in this example only twice in a few months.

Which photographs are needed from Markus' GS tally? I understand from the reverse without flash?

Brilliant comparisons, Norm. My respect, I wish I would have the skills to do the same.

Rgds

Daniel

[CSForrester]

Gentlemen,
in my opinion the tallies from the period 1937-1939 were at least produced by Minimum two different companies on two different machines.
Best way to come to this conclusion, is collecting the 14 numbered Schiffsstammabteilung-tallies.
If you got some of them in your collection you will remark, that there are differences. Letters and spaces are woven wider, some have a more clear "shadow" around the letters on the obverse some less.
This differences we find on all the tallies which where ordered by the Kriegsmarine in more than only one charge.
And the three Panzerschiffe where for shure large ships with a large and in parts regular changing crew. The tallies where ordered in more than one charge and from at least - more than one producer.
I have no collection of tallies any more, one lonely "Kriegsmarine" tally, so i am sorry that i can not give the proof.
But check your other tallies from the period, i guess you will find out what i mean.

Regards
Markus

[CSForrester]

I found a nice example for my last statement. Sorry, i have only scans of the obvers.
Two times Marineunteroffizierlehrabteilung, both original from the period but - clearly made by different producers with different machines.

Regards
Markus

[John R.]

I do not think there has ever been doubt that several companies made cap tallies for the German Navy and even if one, it is probable that over time different cards were used that resulted in different front letter appearances.

The question I think is if the 2 tallies we are discussing are postwar thread construction or not.

Maybe these threads are simply of different quality or source from other tallies of the time resulting in the bright gold, and dense, appearance on the reverse.

Or, maybe the look of these 2 tallies is the result of camera flash or some other consequence of the photographic technique.

I do not know, but would like to summarize a bit for the new collectors in this field:

1. The pinned thread above, a product in large measure due to the contribution of Markus, is the best guide currently avaiable to collectors for the study of tallies produced after 1918 and before the end of the war. There are also smatterings of other details that delve into the subject of postwar tallies. Meaning Bundesmarine and fakes/reproductions/tourist market.

2. Markus and Bernd wrote an outstanding book on Imperial tallies, available to collectors interested in that period.

3. We have three tally types:

a. Cotton (called artificial silk by the Germans)

b. Gold Wire

c. Cellon

Each have been discussed in detail in the pinned thread.

For collectors, cellon is the most difficult tally to collect due to the material of the threads and that difficulty makes it hard, but not impossible, to determine if period or a postwar reproduction. Prinz Eugen is a perfect example of a cellon tally since it has only shown up in cellon from crew member effects.

The two (2) tallies being discussed are different than any other period Graf Spee tally observed to date by collectors on this forum. The most common Graf Spee is gold wire and far less common are the cotton examples. Markus had cotton examples and Dani bought them (or it) from Markus. I think Dani owns two or three of them today.

Cotton were issued tallies early in the period but not popular with the sailors as not nearly as impressive as gold wire. I think cotton tallies are the nicest to collect these days due to their rarity and the fact they were early issue tallies.

However, most seem to like gold wire over cotton with cellon coming in third.

Value is the same for all three generally speaking.

John

[Norm F]

Gentlemen,
in my opinion the tallies from the period 1937-1939 were at least produced by Minimum two different companies on two different machines.
Best way to come to this conclusion, is collecting the 14 numbered Schiffsstammabteilung-tallies.
If you got some of them in your collection you will remark, that there are differences. Letters and spaces are woven wider, some have a more clear "shadow" around the letters on the obverse some less.
This differences we find on all the tallies which where ordered by the Kriegsmarine in more than only one charge.
And the three Panzerschiffe where for shure large ships with a large and in parts regular changing crew. The tallies where ordered in more than one charge and from at least - more than one producer.
I have no collection of tallies any more, one lonely "Kriegsmarine" tally, so i am sorry that i can not give the proof.
But check your other tallies from the period, i guess you will find out what i mean.

Regards
Markus

Good points from Markus.

Here's a previous thread that also touches upon the different fonts and producers of tallies:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=681973

If one concentrates on the Metallfaden tallies of the pre-war period, not only are there multiple subtle font variations but also a general geographical trend back at that time where the "extended" font (more spread out) was seen in the North Sea training units whereas the "condensed" fonts (more compressed) were seen in the Baltic Sea training units. The assumption is that the geographically separate areas used different manufacturers in their supply chain. (That geographical trend may have been different later after the transition to cotton tallies).

When you consider a big ship like the Graf Spee which changed location and crews a lot (unlike the training units) there can be a variety of font variations.

So font variation alone doesn't identify post-war production; one has to also consider the thread and weave, feel and reflective properties which can be very difficult or inconclusive on forum photos and flash photography. Furthermore that look and feel has to be correlated to pieces with wartime provenance and others of known post-war origin -- a daunting but not impossible challenge.

We know how to identify the Belfast Scharnhorst reproduction tally now (even if the ends are cut off to disguise that red flag) based simply on font placement because we're fortunate to have the known fake with which to correlate. But we don't yet have a sufficient experience with the "cotton" Graf Spee tally in question - if someone here could buy it, study it, and take high resolution photos in daylight, perhaps we could say more. If it were truly as shiny and smooth as the bad flash photography would have us believe, then that doesn't bode well but we need more data.

Ideally, Dani would buy it and photograph it side-by-side with his cotton Graf Spee and post detailed photos (hint, hint...)

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

The tally sold for 106 euros so if the new owner is a member of this forum, please post images of it here when it arrives.

John

[John R.]

To further discuss cotton GS tallies, here is my example, from a crewman of GS who was interned in Uruguay. It is heavily soiled/stained with tobacco smoke, so was difficult to photograph, but you will see that the font matches the ones posted so far (Markus and MEHT) but not the ebay example.

[John R.]

Now the Markus example now owned by Dani. The following shots are from the same tally so you will how photo flash affects the image.

[John R.]

Dani tallies (cotton on top, gold wire on bottom)

[John R.]

Dani

[John R.]

The same GS cotton tally owned by Dani with no flash, natural light.

[John R.]

2