Announcement

**Aries22** · 12-21-2014, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Im not here to argue the point Aries, but your now saying this was painted twice in the factory, with 2 different colors of tan paint? Then was stamped with an acceptance stamp. On a repaint? Nick said earlier on we are not discussing repaints.

Nick, despite hearsay and circumstantial evidence, if these were factory refurbished to be tan, then why are you insistent on classifying them only for the SS-P division when clear evidence shows every branch wearing tan helmets close to this color? And why only Greece? Too many question marks to categorize these helmets as SS-Polizei division helmets.

As well, supposition is being made on black and white photos and poor color pictures.
Frank and Walter have clear points that need to be heard.

In any case, it has been an interesting read, and I agree that these may be wartime, but the thread is now going around in circles.

It was originally posted as a DAK helmet. Then it was an Egyptian contract helmet. Then a Czech depot helmet, for postwar use. Then Czech National Guard of sort. Now it is an SS Polizei helmet. The facts are this: nobody really knows what these were for.

All of these claims are being made with no concrete proof and nothing but hearsay and highly circumstantial evidence being drawn to fit the desired conclusions of those who want it to be something other than what it might be.

In any case, its been a good discussion but unless there is something more to add, I feel categorizing these as SS Polizei factory painted tropical helmets is simply not right.

And I will bet good money that these are for sale on a dealer site soon as such, for about $3000. And therein lies the problem. Unless there is hard evidence, it is very dangerous to draw firm conclusions without hard evidence.

I have 3 books coming on the history of the SS-P division in the new year, for a separate research project. I would be interested to see what they say in the books about this topic, if anything.

Yes Doug, it is what I and helmet says, two coloured with stamp all original war time made and if this helmet and one on Nicks photo with part stamp are not clear evidence for war time made I have no idea which another direct evidence is needed....I do not know for which unit exactly it was made, it will be hard way to find, but important they yellow helmets are original made....

**M35** · 12-21-2014, 08:46 PM

I've been watching this thread with great interest since the beginning. I was one of the believers in these when they first hit the collectors market all those years ago, and one of the last to be finally swayed by peer pressure over the Egypt contract theory.

So where are we now? I think a couple things have been accomplished. At least in my mind, I now feel pretty certain that these are NOT Egypt contract helmets. But no definitive proof has been produced that these are old stock SS helmets. They could just as easily have been done for the LW or Heer I believe.

The $64,000 question remains - were they done during the war or after. I think the proof is a long way off but I for one feel there is a better than 50-50 chance they were done wartime and that's the only real important issue to me.

The dome stamp issue has me a little baffled though. In fact, it proves nothing to me. For one thing, dome stamps were done with factory produced helmets, not depot or field refurbs. Since I do not think anyone is alleging these were done in a helmet factory, the fact there are one or two of these with dome stamps really proves nothing. By the way, to my knowledge, dome stamps were put on ALL helmets at factories, not just a sampling.

I look forward to more information but I have to admit that this thread seems to have been going in circles the last couple hundred posts. It is getting a little tiresome reading the same thing over and over and at great length. I'm anxious to see what new things come up and hopefully the digging will continue, especially by the Europeans in the area where these were found. I was the one who started the thread on GHW but have tried to remain neutral and keep an open mind either way. To some of us, NO German helmet from WWII is ugly and these will never be ugly to me.......even though owning one or two is plenty for me.

Cheers,
Terry

**DougB** · 12-21-2014, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by M35 View Post

The dome stamp issue has me a little baffled though. In fact, it proves nothing to me. For one thing, dome stamps were done with factory produced helmets, not depot or field refurbs. Since I do not think anyone is alleging these were done in a helmet factory, the fact there are one or two of these with dome stamps really proves nothing. By the way, to my knowledge, dome stamps were put on ALL helmets at factories, not just a sampling.

Hi Terry, that is what has me puzzled as well, and the 2 coats of paint, in a factory, then an acceptance stamp on a short number of them, it makes no sense and because it is so out of the norm as to require a lot more work and evidence, which may turn up over time.

Good thread gents. Lets see what happens over the coming months/years ahead.

**WalterB** · 12-21-2014, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by M35 View Post

The dome stamp issue has me a little baffled though. In fact, it proves nothing to me. For one thing, dome stamps were done with factory produced helmets, not depot or field refurbs. Since I do not think anyone is alleging these were done in a helmet factory, the fact there are one or two of these with dome stamps really proves nothing. By the way, to my knowledge, dome stamps were put on ALL helmets at factories, not just a sampling.

Exactly Terry, that is what I was trying to indicate with respect to the acceptance stamps. Such stamps would be applied at the factory. No reissues were subsequently stamped again. For a helmet to have an acceptance stamp, it had to be a fresh production from a factory. Now Nick raises a point that if a commander of a unit wanted these tan helmets, he could place an order from the factory and receive them. It just didn't work that way. Production was on a massive scale and there is no other example early, mid or late war that shows that helmet manufacturers would perform custom paint jobs for anybody.

P.S. Dennis S missed the point about the chrome helmet. That example was used to counter the point previously made that "something is innocent until proven guilty" or "something is real until proven fake".

**Dennis S** · 12-21-2014, 11:57 PM

Walter, I didn't miss your point , maybe you missed mine. If you read any of my previous posts you would have read that I am a proponent of the same theory and not a cheerleader for these helmets. The chrome biker helmet was just a poor analogy in my opinion .

**NickG** · 12-22-2014, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by WalterB View Post

Exactly Terry, that is what I was trying to indicate with respect to the acceptance stamps. Such stamps would be applied at the factory. No reissues were subsequently stamped again. For a helmet to have an acceptance stamp, it had to be a fresh production from a factory. Now Nick raises a point that if a commander of a unit wanted these tan helmets, he could place an order from the factory and receive them. It just didn't work that way. Production was on a massive scale and there is no other example early, mid or late war that shows that helmet manufacturers would perform custom paint jobs for anybody.

Good points...dome stamps only make sense with factory made helmets, inspector's stamp is done at the plant. The dome stamps uncovered thus far appear on M42's (like post 444) ...
So those came from an order (in this color) to be made like this...In other words those are factory fresh built like this ground up...
and if the dome stamps are authentic (and why wouldn't they be? put fake stamps on tainted helmets?) this means that the remaining
M35 and M40 helmets are indeed rebuilts, to supplement the quantities needed... (and consequently have later mid war parts as well...
Possible? Do the M42's all have later mid war liner bands (RBNR;s etc...)? I would expect so...Check those lids! Some claim their helmets show signs of paint removal, (sanding marks) taken to bare metal and completely reconditioned in RAL GrunGelb, repainted with fresh inner
components added (done outside of the stahlhelm factory, (ET etc) so at a reconditioning work shop...meaning no inspector dome stamps)
Germans were very thrifty, according to Baer's book 25 million helmets were made and many again remade,re-conditioned, recycled, 2nd lives!

Here's another thought: Maybe we can look at sold buch entries? Perhaps an entry in a Polizei Division Soldbuch can be found for a tropen farbe stahlhelm?
(if it was considered special kit to be issued with Sahariana gear, and to be turned in later...) Just a thought!

**90th Light** · 12-22-2014, 02:16 AM

Two things this thread is not giving a high enough weighting;

1/ The SS had taken over and owned an amazing amount of industry in Czechoslovakia. The CZ was a major center of SS production in WW2 for all sorts of items. They had over and above any other service in the Wehrmacht the production capability to refurbish helmets in that part of the Reich.

2/ The SS collected and refurbished battle field items. They also collected and rebuilt bomb damaged inventory. What if these helmets shells came from the battle fields of Europe and the bombed out factories/ warehouses of Germany where final production could no longer be completed or they had been fire damaged.

Here is what I wrote on another thread about this;

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

This tunic is an interesting one

Is it restored post war or refurbished during the war ???

If one researches for example Ravensbruck Concentration camp, one will read that they brought in battle torn and blood soaked tunics and rebuilt them for re-issue to the SS.

There is a interesting book about a female inmate in Ravensbruck who describes the jobs and speed with which SS camo items had to be made but she goes on to say that was a good job compared to having to work on rebulding the battle damaged tunics.

I believe that this is an example of such an SS tunic. Rebuilt later in the war with SS bevo insignia reapplied and the tunic then reissued. Would appear to have been an SS tunic first however before its rebuild because there is no sign what so ever of a WH breast eagle.

The insignia on it is a matching set of SS bevo collar tabs both runes and rank tab are machine stitched on plus a nice bevo eagle machine zig-zagged on to the sleeve. The collars show a lot of wear, the eagle less so.

My pick is that it may well have been pressed into SS use in 1940. It saw a lot of action and then was rebuilt in the likes of Ravensbruck in 1944. Again seeing action after that.

With the benefit of a hands on inspection I can say that it certainly has been an SS tunic all its combat life, the insignia is correctly applied for the period before May 45 it has several needed repairs to make it a functional combat tunic for reissue.

Chris

As I have already stated more that once, I am trying to remain open minded but the scales have leaned towards WW2 production. Then taking this possibility one step further, the SS were into refurbishment a lot more than the Wehrmacht. Simply because they could not get enough for the expansion of their units throughout the entire war,

Chris

**Tim O'Keefe** · 12-22-2014, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Good points....

Here's another thought: Maybe we can look at sold buch entries? Perhaps an entry in a Polizei Division Soldbuch can be found for a tropen farbe stahlhelm?
(if it was considered special kit to be issued with Sahariana gear, and to be turned in later...) Just a thought!

The Soldbuch will only state "Stahlhelm" unfortunately, while it will mention tropenhelm etc.

Here is a thread with one of the tropenhelms found at the depot without insignia.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...66#post6724966

Great thread guys

**francis006** · 12-22-2014, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Tim OK View Post

The Soldbuch will only state "Stahlhelm" unfortunately, while it will mention tropenhelm etc.

Here is a thread with one of the tropenhelms found at the depot without insignia.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...66#post6724966

Great thread guys

Orange inside usualy for Lw

**Tim O'Keefe** · 12-22-2014, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

Orange inside usualy for Lw

Agree my friend, it is more likely for the LW, (ss used this type too) but still believe it is from the depot near Prague. Which may have served not just the ss, but LW or Herr with the tropical kit when deploying to the SudFront. No holes punched for the insignia is the link to the depot.

The Helmets don't have a decal which may imply they may have been used by different branches as well, which has already been mentioned by several members here.

**bigschuss** · 12-22-2014, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Yes you missed something....you missed reading post # 429... Only a small percentage (spot checked helmets) would get such an inspector's approval dome stamp!
So these appearing on such tan helmets is 20 -25%...and out of the surviving ones its a smaller number...and many domes post war over-painted in Czech civil black!
So to me the dome stamp (now shown appearing on several examples) is a very important revelation and totally kills the post war theory! = progress!
Hope that helps! NickG

Thanks Nick. I've read every post, I swear!

There's just a lot of information to keep track of.

Are you proposing that only the M42's came from the factory…and thus should have dome stamps? And that the M35's and M40's were refurbished at the depot level? And comparing the M42's to the M35's and M40's they were all repainted in the same way and in the same RAL GrunGelb and then all ended up in storage together.

Good thread!

Blair

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-22-2014, 07:59 AM

After reading this thread from post number one to current I find that it has gone from being an open discussion to the potential of these helmets as pre1945 to a let's prove these helmets are of the SS. That simply is not a scholarly discussion.

The foundation and meat of this thread is based on conjecture, memories of a possible veteran and the debunking of a previous thought process regarding these helmets. However there have been no supporting documents and no photographic documentation to prove anything other than the fact that tan camouflaged helmets were worn in tropical areas by all of the Wehrmacht.

Within this entire thread I have not seen one clear enough photograph that would prove that these helmets are pre-1945. Also nothing concrete has been proven other than the fact that during war items are recycled at various levels and in various countries of occupation. The standards of refurbishment greatly differed from one manufacture to another, and from the soldier themselves.

I don't believe there are any arguments to the fact that the Egyptian connection was probably bogus or altered. Concurrently there is nothing proving at all that these helmets are even remotely associated to the Waffen SS. Thus far there has been only conjecture regarding the location of these helmets where they were discovered and how they were manufactured. Beauty aside ugly or attractive to collectors has little to do with the point of this thread.

NikG I will say this I believe that you appear to be on a mission to prove that not only are these helmets pre 1945 but they are Waffen SS. I do not believe that you are being objective in anyway. Through my reading of this thread I have found your your arguments to be exactly that arguments. If somebody disagrees or brings up another point you quickly have dismissed it in favor of "old-school mentality". That could not be further from the truth. Many members both here as well as the other site have brought up legitimate points and have yet to be addressed. I personally do not rest my hat on the supposed recollections of a veteran this many years later. I myself am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps who served between 1995-1999 and to be quite honest I could not tell you how I obtained my final set of Camo etc. as far as recollections of an individual while they may hold merit to a certain degree at the end of the day it is still conjecture because none of the other members including myself know that this vet really exists or said what he did. Not to question you as a person simply stating an obvious. While you deem a piece of the puzzle to be a fact to others it is nothing more than conjecture. Citing grainy photographs to prove your poisition infact does nothing to lend evidence to support your conclusion. The photos themselves are of such a nature they are not complete nor are they clear enough to truly be conclusive to support either argument.

I think that most here who have been participating with in this thread would agree with the following: tan a.k.a. tropical helmets were worn by all of the Armed Forces during World War II. They were worn at times during the war or the end of the war where you would think they simply did not fit the norm however it is excepted that these One offs did in fact occur. It does not prove nor does it disapprove these helmets as being 1945 or earlier.

One point that I continuously go back to in my mind is very simple and very logical and being somebody who served in the military in both a desert area as well as stateside I can understand certain elements of this proposition. Why are there so few SS tropical helmets in existence today if the "need for the SS" in tropical locations was so high as to deem this mass conversion of helmets? The answer to me comes back the same each time......... there wasn't a need during the war for this many Waffen SS to have tropical helmets to this degree. Hence why they aren't out there. During the time the SS troops that were stationed in tropical climates thier gear was already isued with only the needed garments for replacement and reserve. when the SS were no longer needed in these areas their damaged helmets would have been refurbished, or converted for use by other arm services as well as the SS for the areas of operation where they were needed. Places like Normandy Belgium come to my mind quickly where the use of tropical helmets would not be needed. When troops were rotated in or out I don't necessarily believe that they were issued "special helmets". Evidence to the contrary is clearly supported by accepted wartime tropically converted helmets around the world in collections and museums. To my knowledge through my own personal study the only Waffen SS troops that were left in tropical areas were pretty much already there for a long period of time Until pulled out of the area not to return. The fact remains that physical evidence of the need for tropical SS helmets is proven by how many are left in collections today. DougO knows very few are out there because he has most if not all of them all. I have had many helmets in my collection and we all know of many helmets in other collections and museums around the world that directly contradict the notion of this "need" for tropical gear at this stage in the war. Most helmets were painted by the soldiers themselves which is a further testament to the fact that the mass production of Ie: tropical helmets simply was not something that was needed.

Again these are my own personal conclusions but my conclusions are based on evidence that is excepted as being historically accurate. Meaning collections around the world through private collectors museums as well as my own personal experience hands-on with both the helmets of this topic as well as other tropical helmets that of rotated through my own private collection within the last 20+ years. I also do not discount the fact that many well-known retailers that it been around since the time when these helmets first appeared on the market were given a very specific story whether that story was in Egyptian contractor or otherwise at the end of the day the story was always the same .............post war created. I am open that there might be a possibility that these helmets could have been pre-1945 however I am most certainly closed to the notion that these helmets were created for the Waffen SS in a Waffen SS depot. simply based on research, experience as well as in hand ownership of SS helmets and/ or other tropical helmets non-SS associated I simply do not believe that their affiliation is with the Waffen SS. Wishful thinking of collectors who desire an SS helmet in thier collections. IMO.

Just my opinion take it for what it's worth. We all have a point of view it's whether or not that point of view is based on historical accepted fact or if that point of view is based on conjecture and unsupportive documentation that makes the conclusion credible.

**DougB** · 12-22-2014, 02:09 PM

Hi Mr Hollywood I am Doug B, not DougO

:-)

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-22-2014, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Hi Mr Hollywood I am Doug B, not DougO

:-)

Sorry Doug it was a typo! I was dictating to my Ipad......you know how that goes. LOL

**muzrub** · 12-22-2014, 06:31 PM

Thanks to everyone for keeping this above board, it has been a good read.

I wonder which Dealer will be the first to cash in? The reality is that many people are now probably thinking about their hip pocket first when they consider which story they choose to believe.

I'd like to see a confirmed NZ bring back, with a photo taken before the release of these lids.
That would be killer.

Cheers.

Announcement

My new DAK helmets

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread