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**Aries22** · 12-25-2014, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Deathshead View Post

Nick , sorry answers are weak and inconclusive.
I don't "believe" based on hearsay.
So Aries is the guy pushing you then and you are just creating posts based on what he supposedly knows ?
Ok Aries , show us the data of your research and the photos.

But I fear nothing will be forthcoming. I think this topic has become a badly handled affair.
Perhaps to the detriment to the truth.

Ok then, if you don't believe what is based on hearsay - where do have your proof for post war theory ??...in this threads are just written words, no one has to belive it ok I agree with.....but there are clear photos of this helmets with stamps and this is my own proof with info what I know from my country I realy do not need nothing another, Nick and anothers just support this with anothers interesting informations, which they can, same as I do.....it seems then all unbelievers here are missing this FACT WITH STAMPED HELMETS....anyway....no one from all unbelievers here did not post here ANY SERIOUS evidence about post war...just maybe, some solid collector said, I heard,.....but this is nothing....there is still more + then - for war made theory

**NickG** · 12-25-2014, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Deathshead View Post

Nick , sorry answers are weak and inconclusive.
I don't "believe" based on hearsay.
I think this topic has become a badly handled affair.

OK here some more "weak and inconslusive" facts

(repeated again) so lets revisit some of the parts again
(since this thread has become a monster insize)!

Primary source identified helmet parts used for these "Czech-German" tan helmets :
The "German" parts geography:
-Rivets (Split pins or Splinte, dated 1943) came from "MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt", = Sudetenland...in Czech territory it's in Czech "Matyáš Salcher a synové, a.s."
-Liner chinstraps from "G. SINGER, KLATTAU " was a German re-named (Czech) city "Klatovy" in the Bohemia = Protectorate (CZ) ...
-Liners from "B&C Litzmannstadt" in (occupied) Poland! Litzmannstadt, the German name for Lodz was the second largest ghetto in Poland, after the Warsaw ghetto. (see post 538 on work shops in occupied territories)
It was turned into a major industrial center for making German war supplies. These liner band were most likely made by the hands of Jewish slave laborers...so SS controlled, this ghetto location.
Again for me this fits the bill that all the parts were coming from (SS controlled) occupied Poland and Czech territories...so war time production, SS industry rework is VERY plausible, geographically it all makes sense! and strengthen an SS use connection!" Weak??? Really?

Please feel free to show your "strong and conclusive" counter facts! Still waiting!

These are undeniable facts...all I did was connect the dots...
There are no Egyptian dots, no Export dots, no Czech Warsaw pact army dots, civil emergency use dots (in RAL WW2 paint dots??? ony black repaints have that connection! = wrong dots! = postwar recycle, to me that's the ONLY post war reconditioning event!!!)

btw
Here a 1942 invoice from MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt in the Protektorate (note Czech Sudetenland addresses and
also subsidiaries located in Brunn and Prag (Prague-Praha) where the SS depot was.
This is the same company that supplied all of the 1943 liner pins for the refurb project.... (war time or post war?)

The illustrated invoice does not relate to the helmets of of course...a different project ...too early...(dated May 1942).
They were in metal parts manufacturing and supplied parts to a shoe factory also in the Protektorat the invoice shows!...
No doubt hob nails and/or heel "horse shoes" for boots (SS related boot supply?)
Sold in bulk by weight ( 278kg worth, that's a lot of hobnails!!)

Credit goes to: Hradec.Králové (Czech Republic)

We need such documents to put this Czech-German stahlhelm mystery project to bed! What I presented thusfar is certainly not solid proof...
just trying to build a case...like any detective would do with cumulative albeit speculative information, I admit that! , just looking for links!
So putting food for thought out there! That's all! Sorry if I sound pushy,,i dont have an agenda, dont even have such a helmet...I just like solving such mysteries and maybe I am a little too provacative with my thoughts but it can result in good leads! I have good intentions!
and if proven totally wrong I am totally OK with that, it would please me even as we would have an answer, but thusfar I have not seen any real hard evidence to sway me to believe these being post war period! (on the contrary actually) Please prove me wrong!
Thanks!

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**francis006** · 12-25-2014, 07:02 PM

Aries ,
I just want to know if what we see then on the pic is the color of the 1st basis layer , the last overlay being darker or nothing but a stain on the final overlay

Also with the thousand of tan helmets you own with only one with stamp , a simple calculation would mean on 3000 found , only around 30 would have been stamped so can you tell me (even with Nick explanation) if this ridiculous number sounds logical to you ?

Code:

Nah....those dome stamps are clearly Egyption....Cairo main arsenal.....

Nick no need to be sarcastic and I can understand why there are so few contributors . I just want to clear these points and still would like to hear for the others already expressed , like the tan color of post war Czech defence equipments and oversuit

I am surely not as good as you in History of the work organization but I must say I prefer collecting pieces to study and learn .
It's a 40 years work and not finished yet . It's why I stay open but only with an unbiased study !
Just for info on low foreign productions , even if it's not a rule , I owned and know some SS Italian pith helmets with "typical shields"surely made in small quantity . They have been used in Corsica for exemple and incredibly , they all have specific SS stamps inside
they exist in KM , Heer and one recently discover in LW but even if they were very few , they also all have stamps matching each branch .

**NickG** · 12-25-2014, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

I just want to clear these points and still would like to hear for the others already expressed , like the tan color of post war Czech defence equipments and oversuit

I am familiar with the Corsica pith helmet story...so many things get found DECADES after the war in minty unissued state ...not surprising!
Also italian pith helmets brand new condition with period applied German shields were found there, and another example from the same time frame as these Czech-German helmets but not behind the former iron curtain: the DAK tropical equipment cache from Bavaria (tropical web strap canteens, tropical breadbags... etc) all in brand new condition surfaced in the 1990's...
These things happen (just like these helmets still wrapped in protective shelf wrapping paper...hence the condition)

I believe many civil defence protective gear is handy-me-down military material equipment (NBC protective suits) and therefor appear in a military color, that's all...
However Civil defence helmets in CZ are always black and later white or orange...(medical, search and rescue, fire etc..)
(Like US Navy aircraft carrier deck personnel...same idea...) The color denotes branch and function...never military tan!!!!
I illustrated that already with numerous examples in various posts, so did Bubble from CZ....
That gask mask filiters or lens frames or canisters come in a military color has no significance to me...Just reallocated (older) phased out military equipment probably, hence the miitary color...Simple! That is not proof and does not link the helmets to that service at all...WEAK!!!

It's the headgear color that counts, needs to be uniform and that ONLY is the identifier (civil or military) and since NOBODY has shown these tan helmets being worn by Czech emergency service personnel EVER in that color, that explanation is a DEAD END. Period! Not reconditioned for their needs in that color (German RAL), They used overpaints in black ONLY...That has already been shown here...already established.
undeniable fact...Czech emergency services explanation is just another lazy (unresearched) excuse like the Egypt connection fable.

Why on earth would these be refurbished post war in tan (with 100% RBNr parts) and than repainted (overpainted AGAIN) in black???
a sloppy black paint job, not the thorough DunkelGelb reconditioning which costs money and time.
War time need explainable, post war need NOT at all...
How does that even make sense???Please somebody explain to me why that DOES make sense! I don't see it!!!Double work!
Unless they were reconditioned for the Czech army like that post war but never used and reallocated to emergency services...but WHERE are the Czech armed forces property stamps on these lids??? (rampant lion stamp as seen on M53 helmets)..so that explanation is dead too!
Instead what was revealed is DOME stamps on some...Now that's interesting!!! The rest: "gobbledygook"...(a word invented in 1944!)

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-25-2014, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Aries22 View Post

Ok, when this helmets are post war made..so, how you can explain this stamps posted here before ?? Then are they fakes or early post war too ?

Imo faked...yep.

Aries......if you have thousands of these helmets then I see why this thread is soooooo important to you and Nick. Makes me wonder though.........why do you have thousands of them, and is your intention to try and sell them? Is this thread nothing more than "marketing" in hopes that you might win a few members over to buy these helmets?

My friends it is clear to me the over all intent of this thread. It's run its course. Experienced collectors have known about these helmets for decades. They are and will always be post war constructed. Dubious now because many collectors are simply dying to own an SS helmet and this is thier way of doing it.

Just remember one thing.......you can never own a Ferrari for the price of a Honda.
Good night, sleep tight!
Merry Christmas!

**90th Light** · 12-26-2014, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Imo faked...yep.

Aries......if you have thousands of these helmets then I see why this thread is soooooo important to you and Nick. Makes me wonder though.........why do you have thousands of them, and is your intention to try and sell them? Is this thread nothing more than "marketing" in hopes that you might win a few members over to buy these helmets?

My friends it is clear to me the over all intent of this thread. It's run its course. Experienced collectors have known about these helmets for decades. They are and will always be post war constructed. Dubious now because many collectors are simply dying to own an SS helmet and this is thier way of doing it.

Just remember one thing.......you can never own a Ferrari for the price of a Honda.
Good night, sleep tight!
Merry Christmas!

I hate to say this but you have brought very little to the debate.

So far we have nothing but what you constantly tell us about all these experienced collectors who will back you up.

Kelly Hicks does not appear to have replied.

And please do not tell me yet again that you have been collecting for "20+ years" or I will scream. Has it ever occurred to you that some have actually been collecting a lot longer and others a lot less who do not necessarily agree with you.

The reality is that these helmets are an oddity that has not been properly explained since they appeared on the market. They were not fully explained when they first appeared and we have been battling to explain them to this very day. At this stage the war-time argument has some direct and circumstantial evidence going for it.

What would be useful is to add some facts, direct or circumstantial evidence of the post war case that you push so strongly. Even a smidgeon of objective verses subjective information would be nice.

To accuse "NickG" and "Aries22" of being driven solely by the desire of greed and the self motivation to trick people to make money because they are sitting on a stock pile is pretty low. What next they are racist trying to out-fit the Egyptian KKK ?

Please can we have some post war facts if such a case does exist at all,

Chris

p.s. how many examples of sleepers I have picked up in my time as a collector for a fraction of the going market price would you like ? In fact I will give you one, A Frankenstein Tropical M40 cap with soutache dated 1940 for US $150 off a dealer in 1985. Does that make it fake. Hell no, that is a Ferrari for a price far less than a Honda.

**Dennis S** · 12-26-2014, 02:48 AM

If I read correctly Nick does not own one at all.

**90th Light** · 12-26-2014, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

If I read correctly Nick does not own one at all.

Exactly Dennis,

his motivation is a love of history and the need to understand the times these helmets were made that is almost contagious.

Also thanks for identifying that SS Italian unit in post number 511,

Chris

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-26-2014, 04:46 AM

Nick , all parts you mention are also used in factory helmets made in the Reich , the chinstraps , the liners , the rivets. So for me those helmets having those parts does not in itself prove they were assembled in that locality wartime.

Another thing of your earlier reply I want to refute is when you said in answer to me "Counter question: why do continental helmets have the same paint?"
Actually they don't have the same paint , each factory has its own shade of felgrau and texture mix. That's why a factory dome stamped and tan painted helmet and an overpaint with exactly the same color seems unlogical to me.
Either they were all done at a depot (without getting a dome stamp) or they were all done at one factory (with dome stamp).

Using the term 'fits the bill' and 'very plausible" again does not make things conclusive.
Conclusive means that something is indisputable.

Take a really good look at what you have so far and tell me honestly what part of it is undisputably proven.

Yes you are building a case but it is one sided and you ignore many reasonable questions that need answering , don't ignore some of the people here like Francis whom are serious students of the German stahlhelm , Francis has top knowledge in the field. His questions and remarks shouldn't be summarily dismissed.

If you don't even own any helmet like this I would leave the fighting to those that seem to want you doing this fight for them.

Originally posted by NickG View Post

OK here some more "weak and inconslusive" facts

(repeated again) so lets revisit some of the parts again
(since this thread has become a monster insize)!

Primary source identified helmet parts used for these "Czech-German" tan helmets :
The "German" parts geography:
-Rivets (Split pins or Splinte, dated 1943) came from "MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt", = Sudetenland...in Czech territory it's in Czech "Matyáš Salcher a synové, a.s."
-Liner chinstraps from "G. SINGER, KLATTAU " was a German re-named (Czech) city "Klatovy" in the Bohemia = Protectorate (CZ) ...
-Liners from "B&C Litzmannstadt" in (occupied) Poland! Litzmannstadt, the German name for Lodz was the second largest ghetto in Poland, after the Warsaw ghetto. (see post 538 on work shops in occupied territories)
It was turned into a major industrial center for making German war supplies. These liner band were most likely made by the hands of Jewish slave laborers...so SS controlled, this ghetto location.
Again for me this fits the bill that all the parts were coming from (SS controlled) occupied Poland and Czech territories...so war time production, SS industry rework is VERY plausible, geographically it all makes sense! and strengthen an SS use connection!" Weak??? Really?

Please feel free to show your "strong and conclusive" counter facts! Still waiting!

These are undeniable facts...all I did was connect the dots...
There are no Egyptian dots, no Export dots, no Czech Warsaw pact army dots, civil emergency use dots (in RAL WW2 paint dots??? ony black repaints have that connection! = wrong dots! = postwar recycle, to me that's the ONLY post war reconditioning event!!!)

btw
Here a 1942 invoice from MSS, Mathias Salcher und Söhne Wagstadt in the Protektorate (note Czech Sudetenland addresses and
also subsidiaries located in Brunn and Prag (Prague-Praha) where the SS depot was.
This is the same company that supplied all of the 1943 liner pins for the refurb project.... (war time or post war?)

The illustrated invoice does not relate to the helmets of of course...a different project ...too early...(dated May 1942).
They were in metal parts manufacturing and supplied parts to a shoe factory also in the Protektorat the invoice shows!...
No doubt hob nails and/or heel "horse shoes" for boots (SS related boot supply?)
Sold in bulk by weight ( 278kg worth, that's a lot of hobnails!!)

Credit goes to: Hradec.Králové (Czech Republic)

We need such documents to put this Czech-German stahlhelm mystery project to bed! What I presented thusfar is certainly not solid proof...
just trying to build a case...like any detective would do with cumulative albeit speculative information, I admit that! , just looking for links!
So putting food for thought out there! That's all! Sorry if I sound pushy,,i dont have an agenda, dont even have such a helmet...I just like solving such mysteries and maybe I am a little too provacative with my thoughts but it can result in good leads! I have good intentions!
and if proven totally wrong I am totally OK with that, it would please me even as we would have an answer, but thusfar I have not seen any real hard evidence to sway me to believe these being post war period! (on the contrary actually) Please prove me wrong!
Thanks!

**90th Light** · 12-26-2014, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Deathshead View Post

conclusive.

Take a really good look at what you have so far and tell me honestly what part of it is undisputably proven.

(1) This colour, type of paint was used during WW2 before May 1945. That is the important part for this study. The important thing, until this thread came along. Everyone said the paint was a post war epoxy applied in the CZ after WW2.

We have established this RAL paint and shade was also painted on German items during WW2 usually at the factory but not always. It is not epoxy and there is nothing to proving it was not applied in the CZ to these helmets before May 1945

(2) Hoards of other WW2 SS & LW uniform items found in the part of the CZ where the steel helmets where found such as uniform jackets, pith helmets, web belts, boots & parkas

(3) There just happened to be a SS uniform distribution depot in that CZ town for the supply and collection of SS tropical uniforms

(4) The SS (also LW ?) used sand/ tan/ brown steel helmets when they wore their tropical uniforms. Their helmets were an even colour to match the uniforms usually without the rune shield on the side

Chris

**Jos L C** · 12-26-2014, 05:54 AM

If these helmets were found where the pith helmets and uniforms came from, why were they sold as " post war refurbished for a other country " then ??
I've seen batches of these helmets and they were torn apart by dealers to make a few extra bucks, who would do that if they came from a SS-depot ??
Did they also sell the uniforms and piths as post war ?
No ..

Jos.

**90th Light** · 12-26-2014, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Jos L C View Post

If these helmets were found where the pith helmets and uniforms came from, why were they sold as " post war refurbished for a other country " then ??
I've seen batches of these helmets and they were torn apart by dealers to make a few extra bucks, who would do that if they came from a SS-depot ??
Did they also sell the uniforms and piths as post war ?
No ..

Jos.

The deal on the helmets was done first before the wall came down because everyone could see they were German WW2 something or not. Either way German helmets always sold in the 1980's - 90's

Initially there was not much interest in the pith helmets because of all the "Made in Germany" examples already sold in USA comic books in the 1960's & 70's. In fact it is only since the internet that Piths have gained more following.

There was little interest in the SS trop. tunics in the 80's. Many thought they were fake or Italian and of little interest. No one collected Italian back then.

Same with the Parkas, many thought Italian or CZ. Plus they emerged later.

The web belts on their own did not attract many back them. Some said they were Russian or fake because of the colour.

The boots were just seen as CZ, Hungarian or not known.

To talk about some of what was found.

It took a bit of time over several dealers to fully realize just exactly what had been stumbled upon and for the interest in uniform items to increase over firearms from the 1970's to 2010's,

Chris

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-26-2014, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The deal on the helmets was done first before the wall came down because everyone could see they were German WW2 something or not. Either way German helmets always sold in the 1980's - 90's

Initially there was not much interest in the pith helmets because of all the "Made in Germany" examples already sold in USA comic books in the 1960's & 70's. In fact it is only since the internet that Piths have gained more following.

There was little interest in the SS trop. tunics in the 80's. Many thought they were fake or Italian and of little interest. No one collected Italian back then.

Same with the Parkas, many thought Italian or CZ. Plus they emerged later.

The web belts on their own did not attract many back them. Some said they were Russian or fake because of the colour.

The boots were just seen as CZ, Hungarian or not known.

To talk about some of what was found.

It took a bit of time over several dealers to fully realize just exactly what had been stumbled upon and for the interest in uniform items to increase over firearms from the 1970's to 2010's,

Chris

Totally incorrect.

Tropical tunics of all branches were VERY popular among collectors going back to the 60's. Regarding SS tropicsl it has always been and will always be scarce which is why they have always been popular.

Also to address other points you mentioned previously.
1. I have had several conversations regarding these helmets with many fellow collectors, some of which are the bigger names of this hobby as dealers as well. Each has the same opinion, it's nothing new. I already stated that.

2. If you read my post clearly I didn't say that Nick had the helmets I was quoting another member about thier comments on Aries.

3. If you feel I have lended nothing to the thread, what exactly would you have prefered I add? You want people to continue to debate this theory because somewhere in the back of your mind you think that this thread is filled with "intriguing plausibilities". It's not.

The thread is filled with conjecture, misinformation, unsupported theories, and poor research. To some it may appear convincing, or like an Indiana Jones novel, but to those (sorry to say this part because I know your head will blow) with proper experience it's a goose hunt due to what the helmets simply are.

Don't like the "20+" years thing.........sorry Holmes but it's a fact and unlike most on Internet forums it actually means years of hands on experience, hobby development, getting to know those who know more than yourself, handling rare and exotic pieces, and assembling a rare collection based on accuracy and knowledge.

These Chek helmets have been around forever and will never be SS, will never be pre 1945, they will never be more than they are no matter how much arguing, or "facts" you put out there. Something's are what they are.

**90th Light** · 12-26-2014, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Totally incorrect.

Tropical tunics of all branches were VERY popular among collectors going back to the 60's. Regarding SS tropicsl it has always been and will always be scarce which is why they have always been popular.

Wrong again sorry, how many posting going back in time would you like about this ?.

The further back you go i.e. 2000, 1995, 1990, 1985, 1980, 1975, the less they are trusted. In fact the internet increased awareness and popularity of these SS tropical tunics.

And this is just from this forum;

Originally posted by Tommy View Post

Hi...

in the last years many of this Tunic comes on the shows. Its for me very suspect at this long time many good condition Tunics on the markt.now..
From the Fotos the Tunic shows O.K. This Tunics wear Police Units too... in Greece. And i mean the 1.SS too.

Good luck with the item...

Tommy

Originally posted by Marc verstraete View Post

Hello all,

I am far from an expert in cloth and uniforms, like some of you know, I stopped uniforms long time ago when repros became to good, this I why I frequently ask for help on this forum but here I am surprised… This tunic has been in the collection of the actual owner for LOOOOOOONG time… What detail makes it a repro and if it is when was it made?? SS tropical is not highly demanded so making a repro in the 70’s….?????

Does everyone agree on this being a repro???

Marc

Originally posted by Bill D. View Post

Very interesting thread!

Quex...You wrote that in your opinion the Sahariana that begins this thread is post-WW II. Can you tell us what the differences are between the jacket and a WW II period Sahariana in your view?

Please do some research. Focus on the objective case for post war production if that is what you believe. Give the subjective hearsay from all these experienced collectors a rest.

And here is a scream, you mentioned the "20+" thing again

Chris

**GAMS1** · 12-26-2014, 07:56 AM

WSS tropical uniforms are not so popular like a WH or a LW one ?
In Europe we do have many on the market , almost all of them coming from the Czech republic , now or 20 years ago , directly or through collectors-dealers !
Nick

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