Rare SS Pack Prototype Dagger

[JR.]

If Ron's is a one looker, why is the motto etch different from the standard 33's as we know them, by this same maker ?

[James P]

Seeing the tangs of these SS daggers would settle the question of whether they are prototype or later regular production daggers.

[Serge M.]

If Ron's is a one looker, why is the motto etch different from the standard 33's as we know them, by this same maker ?

Because Ron's is a Christmas dagger and we would expect minor changes compared to later production runs by the same maker.

However, the OP's example shows quite a difference between Ron's example, and they couldn't have made many in between these two examples.

[JR.]

Is there not a big motto scrip change between a Christmas SA, and a standard M33? They certainly look way different to me

[Serge M.]

Is there not a big motto scrip change between a Christmas SA, and a standard M33? They certainly look way different to me

Yes indeed, on SA Christmas daggers and the M33.
Was there however a motto script change within the SA Christmas daggers run ?

[JR.]

So of the 3 more skeptical, Serge, Fred, & James, have any of you had the opportunity to handle and inspect this dagger 1st hand? Perhaps at the SOS or before ?

[Frogprince]

Magnetic? What, the pin or the eagle or something else?

I don’t recall checking any of it with a magnet. The pin looked to be nickel silver to me but I suppose it may have been steel. Easy enough for the owner to check but it was not oxidized as I could see. IMO these pins were a stopgap method or maybe the word initial is better suited for the situation at the time.

I try to put myself in the place of those developing these daggers. This is a risky proposition I realize as I make a lot of assumptions in so doing, but it is a starting point to understanding. As a collector of Imperial German edged weapons I think that you will agree when I state that the common method of attaching Metal emblems to the grips of edged weapons (practiced by solingen makers no less) was to pin these emblems to the surface of the grip not inset them. There may have been an exception from the 1850s through the early 30s Weimar era but I was unable to recall one on the hundreds of such swords and some bayonets even that I have seen and in many cases owned/own.
Now we are in 1933 Solingen and these same maker are being asked to work up concept pieces from a design drawing(s). I might expect the first ones had the national emblems pinned on the surface of the grip as had been the custom. Someone with authority “suggested” the emblem be inset so now they have to work out how to mass produce an inlet cut that will be precise. They did not use a national emblem with a special grip mount before so they did not one or a hundred laying around, in fact they did not have national emblems laying around and on and on this process went. I can not be the only SOB on this forum who has worked in similar metal item design and production factories and understand this process of bringing a design to production.

It was you that mentioned a (possibility of ?) a tungsten steel brad in the grip, and a pin being a backup feature in case the tungsten failed? Tungsten steel normally being magnetic I was thinking that maybe it was tested? Not that it made sense to me because tungsten was one of the very significant alloys essential to the Wehrmacht. As for early practices for emblems in sword grips for example they were usually solid appliqués with pins in the back inserted into the wood/grip material. By the time of the Imperial era the appliqués were usually stamped. Stamped silver appliqués for high end items, stamped nickel silver or brass for ordinary use, and stamped steel as a wartime or economy technique. As for the National Emblems the very well developed metal stamping industry made stamped “tinnies”, emblems, badges, insignia etc. by the many millions at very low cost with the NDSAP using sales as a revenue source. It also began to control some producers to capture revenue from them to benefit the expansion of the Party that is probably better known to specialists in that area. The TR era seeing the adoption of non-copper based metals. Also understanding both the hands on and the formal training aspect of manufacturing because if a businesses is to succeed you don’t make choices that are going to make it less efficient than the competition and you have to shut down your operation. FP

[JR.]

I don't know for sure, but I expect Witty got to see this dagger at the SOS show? Were you with him Serge, when and if he saw this ?

[Frogprince]

JR,
This dagger seems to be unique compared to other Epack Christmas daggers by having a different grip eagle, motto, and perhaps a Rohm dedication.

So we can't assume anything and it would be proper to find out more by Xray to see if there are other variations compared to Ron W's old example, which IMO is a 'One Looker'.

-Serge

X-Rays will answer a lot of questions. Why it was not done earlier with such a strange ersatz eagle. FP

[Frogprince]

Seeing the tangs of these SS daggers would settle the question of whether they are prototype or later regular production daggers.

That would be another good area to look at. FP

[Frogprince]

Because Ron's is a Christmas dagger and we would expect minor changes compared to later production runs by the same maker.

However, the OP's example shows quite a difference between Ron's example, and they couldn't have made many in between these two examples.

In agreement here also. FP

[Ron Weinand]

One point on mottos on PACK daggers: As we know just from Pack trademarks, there are SEVERAL variations in the 33 to 35 period. I am sure it was the same with mottos and the Rohm presentations. Even the placement of the motto on the Pack's blade varied up and down the blade. I know of no other manufacturer that had as much variation.

[Frogprince]

Yes indeed, on SA Christmas daggers and the M33.
Was there however a motto script change within the SA Christmas daggers run ?

With a very limited production run same question. FP

[JR.]

So from a fuzz photo taken 25 years ago, Ron's dagger is good and a one looker. But although detailed photos of the OP dagger have been repeatedly shown, it needs to have the tang shown and X-rayed? Really ?

[Frogprince]

One point on mottos on PACK daggers: As we know just from Pack trademarks, there are SEVERAL variations in the 33 to 35 period. I am sure it was the same with mottos and the Rohm presentations. Even the placement of the motto on the Pack's blade varied up and down the blade. I know of no other manufacturer that had as much variation.

The placement of an etching mask is not the same as using a different mask. FP