Rare SS Pack Prototype Dagger

[phild]

Ok so now we have a break through on these daggers, allow me to summarize:

The SS Christmas Dagger is an accepted variation of SS dagger, albeit with only the exact pattern eagle shown in the eagle and dagger above. They may not have settled on the exact dagger details but by god they settled on the exact eagle details at least until they decided a few months later to change the eagle to the 1934 pattern we are all familiar with both long and short neck variations but still the same.
I’m on board now and it makes perfect sense.

Just because I’m stupid, I have to ask; what would an x-ray prove or disprove? As a wannabe “real collector” I need to know the secret sauce to look for should I have a prototype political dagger grip x-rayed.

[nickn]

Not with the ersatz brass eagle. FP

You still cannot answer yes or no
You didn’t believe Christmas Ss daggers existed
You have seen photos
Now Ron’s purchase
Yes or no
I won’t hold my breath you seem to have a big problem admitting you are wrong
I expect You will post some more irrelevant photos and waffle
Or how about all the photos of fakes of this dagger people have sent you but at the promise you won’t show them
Come on froggy put us out of our deluded misery teach us

[Serge M.]

The SS Christmas Dagger is an accepted variation of SS dagger, albeit with only the exact pattern eagle shown in the eagle and dagger above. They may not have settled on the exact dagger details but by god they settled on the exact eagle details at least until they decided a few months later to change the eagle to the 1934 pattern we are all familiar with both long and short neck variations but still the same.
I’m on board now and it makes perfect sense.

Just because I’m stupid, I have to ask; what would an x-ray prove or disprove? As a wannabe “real collector” I need to know the secret sauce to look for should I have a prototype political dagger grip x-rayed.

No it's not a "accepted variation of a SS dagger". You want to to be, I understand that. It is still a 'unacknowledged variant'.
There are other issues that will be further discussed. Your 'front running' style is not helping your cause as it makes your position look weak, IMHO.

Now we know that you didn't have the grip X-Rayed. Not important ? Guess not as it wasn't shown in the booklet.

What will you be saying next ? - It's Self-Authenticating ?

-Serge

[phild]

Fred,
One would think that would be one of the first things they would do help with verification of proper and accepted period attachment.
I would, and it would be one of the required tests (besides others) if I would consider purchasing a .... unacknowledged variant with a never before seen strange grip eagle.

However, that said, collectors are different. Some would perhaps accept all the verdigris around the eagles edge as evidence of being 'period untouched'.

-Serge

I could not even wait for a response to my last post concerning x-rays.

“Accepted period attachment”, could it be that the darn pin/nail that we see between the talons in ALL examples of these pre-standardized daggers just might have something to do with how THOSE eagles were attached to the grip?? Just a crazy hunch on my part I’ll admit, but is that what we want the X-ray to prove or do some expect to find a tungsten steel brad into the grip chanel and the pin was just
A back up feature in case the tungsten failed?

[Frogprince]

Ok so now we have a break through on these daggers, allow me to summarize:

The SS Christmas Dagger is an accepted variation of SS dagger, albeit with only the exact pattern eagle shown in the eagle and dagger above. They may not have settled on the exact dagger details but by god they settled on the exact eagle details at least until they decided a few months later to change the eagle to the 1934 pattern we are all familiar with both long and short neck variations but still the same.
I’m on board now and it makes perfect sense.

Just because I’m stupid, I have to ask; what would an x-ray prove or disprove? As a wannabe “real collector” I need to know the secret sauce to look for should I have a prototype political dagger grip x-rayed.

An X-Ray will show what's underneath the grip. Maybe it's OK and maybe it's not. For all we know maybe the nail/rivet broke off and the emblem is epoxied on. Who knows? FP

[Frogprince]

You still cannot answer yes or no
You didn’t believe Christmas Ss daggers existed
You have seen photos
Now Ron’s purchase
Yes or no
I won’t hold my breath you seem to have a big problem admitting you are wrong
I expect You will post some more irrelevant photos and waffle
Or how about all the photos of fakes of this dagger people have sent you but at the promise you won’t show them
Come on froggy put us out of our deluded misery teach us

Now to me you seem to have some kind of personal issue. Is it because of the time I posted those images of black shoe dyed grips that you did not want me to use? FP

[Frogprince]

I could not even wait for a response to my last post concerning x-rays.

“Accepted period attachment”, could it be that the darn pin/nail that we see between the talons in ALL examples of these pre-standardized daggers just might have something to do with how THOSE eagles were attached to the grip?? Just a crazy hunch on my part I’ll admit, but is that what we want the X-ray to prove or do some expect to find a tungsten steel brad into the grip chanel and the pin was just
A back up feature in case the tungsten failed?

Are you confirming that it's magnetic? FP

[Ron Weinand]

To those asking, I had nothing to do with the ERM Publication

[phild]

Are you confirming that it's magnetic? FP

Magnetic? What, the pin or the eagle or something else?

I don’t recall checking any of it with a magnet. The pin looked to be nickel silver to me but I suppose it may have been steel. Easy enough for the owner to check but it was not oxidized as I could see. IMO these pins were a stopgap method or maybe the word initial is better suited for the situation at the time.

I try to put myself in the place of those developing these daggers. This is a risky proposition I realize as I make a lot of assumptions in so doing, but it is a starting point to understanding. As a collector of Imperial German edged weapons I think that you will agree when I state that the common method of attaching Metal emblems to the grips of edged weapons (practiced by solingen makers no less) was to pin these emblems to the surface of the grip not inset them. There may have been an exception from the 1850s through the early 30s Weimar era but I was unable to recall one on the hundreds of such swords and some bayonets even that I have seen and in many cases owned/own.
Now we are in 1933 Solingen and these same maker are being asked to work up concept pieces from a design drawing(s). I might expect the first ones had the national emblems pinned on the surface of the grip as had been the custom. Someone with authority “suggested” the emblem be inset so now they have to work out how to mass produce an inlet cut that will be precise. They did not use a national emblem with a special grip mount before so they did not one or a hundred laying around, in fact they did not have national emblems laying around and on and on this process went. I can not be the only SOB on this forum who has worked in similar metal item design and production factories and understand this process of bringing a design to production.

[nickn]

Now to me you seem to have some kind of personal issue. Is it because of the time I posted those images of black shoe dyed grips that you did not want me to use? FP

Comment Deleted.
PM sent

[JR.]

So if some of the prototype SA's with the grip eagles held by a brad nail is fine, where is the beef on the prototype SS exhibiting the same thing?

[JR.]

The eagle in the grip of Ron's SS dagger shows the same type of attachment.

[JR.]

Additionally the SS runes button on Ron's dagger is considerably more toned gold, much like the OP's dagger, than is typically seen in your standard 34 production as we know it.

[Serge M.]

So if some of the prototype SA's with the grip eagles held by a brad nail is fine, where is the beef on the prototype SS exhibiting the same thing?

JR,
This dagger seems to be unique compared to other Epack Christmas daggers by having a different grip eagle, motto, and perhaps a Rohm dedication.

So we can't assume anything and it would be proper to find out more by Xray to see if there are other variations compared to Ron W's old example, which IMO is a 'One Looker'.

-Serge

[JR.]

When I compare the Meine Ehre heist Treue motto on Ron's blade, it's not the one that Pack settled on for their standard 33 production. Why not ?
Because the design changed of the dagger, insignia, etch, motto, scabbard and more, as the final pattern was settled on.