Rare SS Pack Prototype Dagger

[phild]

Do you take pictures of obvious fakes that you encounter? I don't!

The same eagle was used on the very first fake SA Christmas daggers, those had horrible, obviously fake blades.

For those among you with a lot of time to spend on this: there might be a topic on GDC about one of these bad eagles.

Victorman

If anyone can show compelling evidence that the eagle in the OP dagger is post war or even period that was post war mounted I will be dumping my collection as I really will have lost all interest.

A little tip here- not ever having seen something is not evidence that it did not nor could not have existed during the period. There will be original unknown variations of many types of items from this period that will continue to surface for decades.

[BobI]

Fred,
It is not the Scottish Dirk but where we all question you is your Third Reich Dress dagger collection. If you posted a recent picture of it with yourself we would all be pretty impressed. I think the reality is you collect WWII German firearms and bayonets and think there is knowledge in cross referencing the three areas. Maybe true in some ways but not all and still there are many idiosyncrasies to specific daggers and companies.
Bob

[Serge M.]

If anyone can show compelling evidence that the eagle in the OP dagger is post war or even period that was post war mounted I will be dumping my collection as I really will have lost all interest.

A little tip here- not ever having seen something is not evidence that it did not nor could not have existed during the period. There will be original unknown variations of many types of items from this period that will continue to surface for decades.

Hello phild,
You just made my evening with this post. With the best, IMO, line I've ever heard in the hobby. It rang all the bells (for me).

Amazing as it may seem, just a few days ago I had a wonderful chat filled with laughs with a advanced collector friend about some of the best lines we ever heard uttered for justifying a supposed rare piece of militaria.
We discussed what what we felt was The Best and what was the second best. We agreed without much debate the #1 was: Unacknowledged Variant.

One has to think for a moment the brilliance of a line like that for justification of a items originality when actual verified proof that is sufficient to cross the threshold of a Verified & Accepted Variant, is lacking with the artifact.
That said, I do agree with you that this SS Christmas dagger is a unacknowledged variant.

Regarding my experiences with 'Unacknowledged variants' in this hobby; in the end the vast majority didn't end up crossing the threshold to become a- 'Accepted Rare Variant'.

Now, some may wonder and ask what was the #2 line of all time that was agreed on between us ?
.

[Frogprince]

Fred,
It is not the Scottish Dirk but where we all question you is your Third Reich Dress dagger collection. If you posted a recent picture of it with yourself we would all be pretty impressed. I think the reality is you collect WWII German firearms and bayonets and think there is knowledge in cross referencing the three areas. Maybe true in some ways but not all and still there are many idiosyncrasies to specific daggers and companies.
Bob

Bob, The pictures I posted were just to make the point that I’m not one of those guys who is focused on only dagger collecting. In different time periods knives/daggers might have just been a practical tool instead of a weapon or badge of rank or organization. You may or may not remember this, but a now deceased friend of mine who was one of my mentors - that was acknowledged in a related document at one time as “the biggest German Relics collector ever” (and was someone else who also lost interest in TR dagger collecting) in a discussion on GDC where I was a moderator. The item in question was a TR sword to a Knight’s Cross winner that after he owned it, was modified by some subsequent owner with parts from another. That was the sort of activity that disgusted him and why he changed his focus. But he did not quit collecting and went on to help other collectors like myself and had been a contributor to various publications (such as from Roger James Bender plus) until his very untimely passing. And it was his mentoring that helped open my eyes and to look at things independently instead of blindly trusting those who were sheep that just followed some guy or guys who claimed to be experts. Which is not to say that there is not expertise out there - but it has to be judged on case by case basis. Fred

[Frogprince]

Self-authenticating - it has been awhile since I've seen that used. As I recall a favorite from somebody to the South of me. Fred

[phild]

Hello phild,
You just made my evening with this post. With the best, IMO, line I've ever heard in the hobby. It rang all the bells (for me).

Amazing as it may seem, just a few days ago I had a wonderful chat filled with laughs with a advanced collector friend about some of the best lines we ever heard uttered for justifying a supposed rare piece of militaria.
We discussed what what we felt was The Best and what was the second best. We agreed without much debate the #1 was: Unacknowledged Variant.

One has to think for a moment the brilliance of a line like that for justification of a items originality when actual verified proof that is sufficient to cross the threshold of a Verified & Accepted Variant, is lacking with the artifact.
That said, I do agree with you that this SS Christmas dagger is a unacknowledged variant.

Regarding my experiences with 'Unacknowledged variants' in this hobby; in the end the vast majority didn't end up crossing the threshold to become a- 'Accepted Rare Variant'.

Now, some may wonder and ask what was the #2 line of all time that was agreed on between us ?
.

Serge,

I’m glad my contribution provided some levity to you and your colleagues!
Here’s another truth in collecting: The best way to magically transform a controversial item into an accepted prime example of a rare item, is for it to be owned be owned by, offered by or better still introduced by the “right” authority.

It truly is magic how that transformation works.

I think that I actually used the term “unknown” variation, but perhaps the term that you intended was supposed to be “unacknowledged” variation. I think that either can work in these cases. It simply means a variation (could be as minor as a maker or even style of maker mark) they had not been published or seemingly seen before by the elusive but ever present “collector community”. On the other hand there is one misleading aspect to both terms and that is once a variation is seen it is at that point known just perhaps not accepted.

If the concept of heretofore unknown variation is humorous to your circle of collectors I will share the concept that too me is a real “ barrel of monkeys” and that is the all pervasive, “ if we haven’t seen it before then it can not exist, unless we find it first”.

[damasco]

Serge,

I’m glad my contribution provided some levity to you and your colleagues!
Here’s another truth in collecting: The best way to magically transform a controversial item into an accepted prime example of a rare item, is for it to be owned be owned by, offered by or better still introduced by the “right” authority.

It truly is magic how that transformation works.

I think that I actually used the term “unknown” variation, but perhaps the term that you intended was supposed to be “unacknowledged” variation. I think that either can work in these cases. It simply means a variation (could be as minor as a maker or even style of maker mark) they had not been published or seemingly seen before by the elusive but ever present “collector community”. On the other hand there is one misleading aspect to both terms and that is once a variation is seen it is at that point known just perhaps not accepted.

If the concept of heretofore unknown variation is humorous to your circle of collectors I will share the concept that too me is a real “ barrel of monkeys” and that is the all pervasive, “ if we haven’t seen it before then it can not exist, unless we find it first”.

Sucked into this again...
THE DAGGER OF DESTINY I wish I came up with that (unacknowledged variation)
Ok anyone can post anything on the forum and THIS is proven everyday.
yes a unacknowledged variation or unknown WELL LETS SORT IT OUT A LITTLE..
So if you want to present this to society a ( unacknowledged variation or unknown variation ) there is a common play book and you and the RIGHT players need to do and have done.
0. BEING INTRODUCED TO SOCIETY,OFFERED OR OWNED BY THE RIGHT AUTHORITY. Yes its Magic..
That is funnier than what Serge said..
1. Get the old veteran owned family owned . Maybe a grandson who just happens to know all the correct collector lingo when he e-mailed me..
Have someone interview or talk family Another classic..
2. Get the Right people to bring it out to society .. All opinion. Now that is nothing new...
3. Name drop, cheer-lead each other get double profiles to stroke each others egos .. But remember at all times Name drop...
4. Get it in a book, why you must ask?? Or better yet print your own pamphlet. These are not new ideas, the old look it was printed.. Or start your own SS forum for LIKE minded believers and to prep up and coming new customers..
So let it be written so let it be done...
5. and when this falls apart it becomes number 6
6. treat it like a holy relic..We (the self anointed )must believe. With Academic proof lacking many still will kneel at the alter (why) you ask.. ?? Because they either want to believe or they HAVE to believe. (to much big money and egos involved) Many people believe their own B.S.
7. when all else fails (just say the unanointed the unwashed ) are jealous . And only wish they paid well into 5 figures for it or wish they were the ones who sold it to the mark..
Another from the old play book.

[Frogprince]

..................................
Here’s another truth in collecting: The best way to magically transform a controversial item into an accepted prime example of a rare item, is for it to be owned be owned by, offered by or better still introduced by the “right” authority.

It truly is magic how that transformation works.
.................................

I am not trying to be facetious when I say that I think you are correct. It worked very well for the late James Atwood and nobody had the audacity to challenge him. And there was a later limited numbers batch made one of which made it into another book by somebody else that was not challenged. Still unchallenged it was not until a single different variant of that type was presented to the collecting public when things started to unravel. Prior to which the owner tried to have it included in a projected book by a well known authority. (Opinion: If it had been successfully accepted I think that the discoveries of other daggers of that type would have probably accelerated.) If you think that I’m wrong with what I have said I’m more than happy to go into the specifics. FP

[Frogprince]

THE DAGGER OF DESTINY I wish I came up with that (unacknowledged variation)
Ok anyone can post anything on the forum and THIS is proven everyday.
yes a unacknowledged variation or unknown WELL LETS SORT IT OUT A LITTLE..
So if you want to present this to society a ( unacknowledged variation or unknown variation ) there is a common play book and you and the RIGHT players need to do and have done.
0. BEING INTRODUCED TO SOCIETY,OFFERED OR OWNED BY THE RIGHT AUTHORITY. Yes its Magic..
That is funnier than what Serge said..
1. Get the old veteran owned family owned . Maybe a grandson who just happens to know all the correct collector lingo when he e-mailed me..
Have someone interview or talk family Another classic..
2. Get the Right people to bring it out to society .. All opinion. Now that is nothing new...
3. Name drop, cheer-lead each other get double profiles to stroke each others egos .. But remember at all times Name drop...
4. Get it in a book, why you must ask?? Or better yet print your own pamphlet. These are not new ideas, the old look it was printed..
So let it be written so let it be done...
5. and when this falls apart it becomes number 6
6. treat it like a holy relic..We (the self anointed )must believe. With Academic proof lacking many still will kneel at the alter (why) you ask.. ?? Because they either want to believe or they HAVE to believe. (to much big money and egos involved) Many people believe their own B.S.
7. when all else fails (just say the unanointed the unwashed ) are jealous . And only wish they paid well into 5 figures for it or wish they were the ones who sold it to the mark..
Another from the old play book.

"THE DAGGER OF DESTINY" Well put, a description that encapsulates some of the discussions that have over time taken place. FP

[krikke1980]

Pfff, are you guys almost done?

Still nothing proved......

[Serge M.]

1. Get the old veteran owned family owned . Maybe a grandson who just happens to know all the correct collector lingo when he e-mailed me..

Damasco,

So the unknowing 'regular joe' non collector grandson of the supposed veteran had communicated with you and used "all the correct collector lingo" ?

What was your feeling at that time ? Did you sense that it was indeed a unknowledgeable in the hobby finder of his grandpas bring-back, or perhaps he was being tutored in the background?
Or even perhaps it wasn't the actual grandson and you were talking with but a knowledgeable collector acting straw-man ?

My Spidy sense is tingling.

-Serge

[Mac 66]

Serge,

Did you try to buy the dagger in question ?

[damasco]

Pfff, are you guys almost done?

Still nothing proved......

What do you mean?? How should I take this comment . What is not proved??

The invitation is open guys.. It scares the RIGHT AUTHORITIES and that is a problem correct??
But wait I have been told not to post this invitation anymore..
WHY?? Really why???
I can tell you how many HJ knives E. Pack made in Aug. of 1933 with motto What does this tell you??
To the RIGHT Authority ... How many SA honor daggers did they make in February . March 1934
Now I would think there is the RIGHT AUTHORITY out there will know this and if not why??? Not enough information or pictures on the internet.??

[damasco]

Damasco,

So the unknowing 'regular joe' non collector grandson of the supposed veteran had communicated with you and used "all the correct collector lingo" ?

What was your feeling at that time ? Did you sense that it was indeed a unknowledgeable in the hobby finder of his grandpas bring-back, or perhaps he was being tutored in the background?
Or even perhaps it wasn't the actual grandson and you were talking with but a knowledgeable collector acting straw-man ?

My Spidy sense is tingling.

-Serge

Simple answer YES .. He knew all the right words.. (But more than likely was educated by the internet) just kidding
Put this is just a small part of the bigger picture..
Hey anyone want to see more lost wax molds for dagger parts??? There might be some unacknowledged variation or (unknown variation socially more acceptable) Last time I posted a few I could here crickets. Or was that a O ****..
I tried to stay away but as I said sucked in again.. Pissing match goes on..

[Serge M.]

Serge,

Did you try to buy the dagger in question ?

Scott,

I made a inquire but did not try to buy it.

-Serge