Officers Wool M43 Cap

[Mike Davis]

Interior shot; faint size marking - 57

[Mike Davis]

Section of lining at point where it joins the brim. Wear and hand repairs noted. Has a sweatband been removed?

[Mike Davis]

One more shot where edge of brim joins cap body. Again, note wear and repairs. The cap body also shows mothing and tracking with repairs in a few areas.

[Glenn McInnes]

Hello Mike,


Looks to have had the sweatband torn out at one point and then repaired.

They certainly look convincing from these photos (materials,construction etc) . Looking forward to hearing Mr Singers comments on the example being sent to him.

The only thing that concerns me on these caps is the weave of the crown piping which I have never seen on a confirmed original M43/38 etc (not saying I have seen everything produced) but have seen it used on reproduction caps. You would think that this style of piping would show up more often on other period manufactured caps.


Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

First, to all who have followed this interesting thread, I owe apologies for my tardiness in responding. No excuses will be made for the "sloth of laziness," for which there IS NO excuse. There for I apologize!

I have spent a good deal of time re-familiarizing myself with these examples of "officers M43 hats" and have come to conclusion that an outright condemnation of these hats is perhaps not warranted. There seems to be nothing "glaring" that I can point to specifically that indicates them to be reproductions.

Their overall construction is executed quite well, with what appears to be original wool. And I feel the lining material, although somewhat atypical, is certainly well within the boundary of acceptability. There is small wonder why many people accept these hats has " coin of the
realm".

That being said, my “gut feeling” about these hats remains one of squeamishness, and in so saying, I probably stand alone with this opinion (an uncomfortable position but one where I have found myself in the past).

At the risk of being “taken to task” and opening a “Pandora’s box” I offer the following observations.

1) There seem to be just too many of this type of hat available in the collecting “market” for comfort. If it were an EM version perhaps, but for near identical, officer’s examples, in the numbers available, all making their appearance at the same time?? Yes, there are instances of this occurring, the now famous, “Dachau” black SS Pz M 43 hats and the DAK tropical overseas hats. To me, the difference is that with the “Dachau” hats, nearly all (to my knowledge) were in mint un-issued condition, having a near similar lining and found in both “human” and small sizes. And with the DAK hats, again all were mint and from various makers and constructions. With theses officers examples, the “gamut” runs from mint examples, to used excellent (some with sweatband removed), to very well used and all in what seem to be wearable proportions.

2) The silver cord is not something that I am comfortable with and, as has so rightly been commented on, I have not seen this used on any other example of hat (M43 or overseas) that I believe to be original. It also does not seem to have the normal “straight consistency” of application” to the crown of the hat that is usually the case with officers M43 (or overseas) hats.

3) Likewise, the insignia itself I find suspect (although I readily admit that I am not an insignia collector). The embroidery, eagles body and wings, peculiarly small cockade “bulls eye” made from “washed out, pinkish red” thread. Perhaps this is only an example of a “foreign made insignia, like the French manufactured KM and coast artillery overseas hats. However, these officer hats have no foreign maker markings. And assuming they have been “privately made”, that is (to me) all the more suspect. I have not seen this style of insignia on any other type of hat that I can recall.

4) All of these hats seem to have (or had) a full “leather” sweatband (a feature uncommon for a typical Heer officer’s M43 hat) and in most cases this was sewn in quite poorly, and often, at some point in time removed. The example I had to “work with” had this full sweatband removed although several threads remained where it was hand sewn in. There was one exception of an example for sale, that I believe was “linked” to this thread, that had a hand sewn “half sweatband”. I found this to be interesting, as one would assume that a manufacturer would only produce their hats one way or another (However, without being able to inspect it, this might have been a replacement for the hat’s original full sweatband).

5) With every example that I have seen or encountered, the insignia has been sewn with a black thread. This strikes me as being a “contrived” attempt to use thread that would “match” the dark green background of the insignia. Not typical “assembly technique” to my viewing.

6) Likewise, it seems that in the examples available for “study” a similar “contrived technique” was attempted in the construction of the “side pulls” located on each side of the ear flaps. In other word, if black material was used in the construction of the “pulls” (as with the example I examined) black thread was used, if a lighter color material was used then a lighter color thread employed (this is not to be confused with the thread that attaches the pulls to the earflaps.)

7) All examples seem to lack a “biases” material in the top edge portions of the earflaps. This, despite the fact that there is a double row of stitching, along this area (this stitching being very common to original M43 hats). This double stitching feature is most normally associated (to me) when “biases” material is present and when the is no “biases” material , only a single stitch line is used. This strikes me as an unnecessary “extra manufacturing step” with these examples and seems to serve only as an aesthetic function.

In a closing note to the comments above, I readily acknowledge that none these points could remotely be considered a “kiss of death”, and could very easily be debated. However, debate was not my intent in enumerating them. They serve only as observations, for whatever they might be worth.

In summation, once again, in all fairness to the piece, I must fall short of a total condemnation. I cannot point to a true “smoking gun” that incriminates their originality. So it might remain, that these examples will continue to be the topic of collecting debate until judgment day, some collectors accepting them as “legal tender” others not.

Personally, the “shroud of uncertainty” that I feel cloaks these hats will keep me from owning one.

B. N. Singer

[billbert]

Thats what makes this hobby FUN!!Billbert

[Mike Davis]

I agree - fun stuff. And well-reasoned analysis from Mr Singer.

Another point that could argue against originality is the seeming absence (so far) of wartime photos showing this type of cap being worn.

I lean toward believing them original but then I've gotten it wrong before...

[B. N. Singer]

....but then I've gotten it wrong before...

Mike D.,

Make room in that boat for me as well!!!

B. N. Singer

[billbert]

They re real They re real they re real!!......Billbert
Real UGLY!!
Real Unusual!!
Real Unnisued!!
Real ABBEYNORMAL..!!
Real Non Standard !!

[Glenn McInnes]

Thanks Bryon



Glenn

[djpool]

First, to all who have followed this interesting thread, I owe apologies for my tardiness in responding. No excuses will be made for the "sloth of laziness," for which there IS NO excuse. There for I apologize!

I have spent a good deal of time re-familiarizing myself with these examples of "officers M43 hats" and have come to conclusion that an outright condemnation of these hats is perhaps not warranted. There seems to be nothing "glaring" that I can point to specifically that indicates them to be reproductions.

Their overall construction is executed quite well, with what appears to be original wool. And I feel the lining material, although somewhat atypical, is certainly well within the boundary of acceptability. There is small wonder why many people accept these hats has " coin of the
realm".

That being said, my “gut feeling” about these hats remains one of squeamishness, and in so saying, I probably stand alone with this opinion (an uncomfortable position but one where I have found myself in the past).

At the risk of being “taken to task” and opening a “Pandora’s box” I offer the following observations.

1) There seem to be just too many of this type of hat available in the collecting “market” for comfort. If it were an EM version perhaps, but for near identical, officer’s examples, in the numbers available, all making their appearance at the same time?? Yes, there are instances of this occurring, the now famous, “Dachau” black SS Pz M 43 hats and the DAK tropical overseas hats. To me, the difference is that with the “Dachau” hats, nearly all (to my knowledge) were in mint un-issued condition, having a near similar lining and found in both “human” and small sizes. And with the DAK hats, again all were mint and from various makers and constructions. With theses officers examples, the “gamut” runs from mint examples, to used excellent (some with sweatband removed), to very well used and all in what seem to be wearable proportions.

2) The silver cord is not something that I am comfortable with and, as has so rightly been commented on, I have not seen this used on any other example of hat (M43 or overseas) that I believe to be original. It also does not seem to have the normal “straight consistency” of application” to the crown of the hat that is usually the case with officers M43 (or overseas) hats.

3) Likewise, the insignia itself I find suspect (although I readily admit that I am not an insignia collector). The embroidery, eagles body and wings, peculiarly small cockade “bulls eye” made from “washed out, pinkish red” thread. Perhaps this is only an example of a “foreign made insignia, like the French manufactured KM and coast artillery overseas hats. However, these officer hats have no foreign maker markings. And assuming they have been “privately made”, that is (to me) all the more suspect. I have not seen this style of insignia on any other type of hat that I can recall.

4) All of these hats seem to have (or had) a full “leather” sweatband (a feature uncommon for a typical Heer officer’s M43 hat) and in most cases this was sewn in quite poorly, and often, at some point in time removed. The example I had to “work with” had this full sweatband removed although several threads remained where it was hand sewn in. There was one exception of an example for sale, that I believe was “linked” to this thread, that had a hand sewn “half sweatband”. I found this to be interesting, as one would assume that a manufacturer would only produce their hats one way or another (However, without being able to inspect it, this might have been a replacement for the hat’s original full sweatband).

5) With every example that I have seen or encountered, the insignia has been sewn with a black thread. This strikes me as being a “contrived” attempt to use thread that would “match” the dark green background of the insignia. Not typical “assembly technique” to my viewing.

6) Likewise, it seems that in the examples available for “study” a similar “contrived technique” was attempted in the construction of the “side pulls” located on each side of the ear flaps. In other word, if black material was used in the construction of the “pulls” (as with the example I examined) black thread was used, if a lighter color material was used then a lighter color thread employed (this is not to be confused with the thread that attaches the pulls to the earflaps.)

7) All examples seem to lack a “biases” material in the top edge portions of the earflaps. This, despite the fact that there is a double row of stitching, along this area (this stitching being very common to original M43 hats). This double stitching feature is most normally associated (to me) when “biases” material is present and when the is no “biases” material , only a single stitch line is used. This strikes me as an unnecessary “extra manufacturing step” with these examples and seems to serve only as an aesthetic function.

In a closing note to the comments above, I readily acknowledge that none these points could remotely be considered a “kiss of death”, and could very easily be debated. However, debate was not my intent in enumerating them. They serve only as observations, for whatever they might be worth.

In summation, once again, in all fairness to the piece, I must fall short of a total condemnation. I cannot point to a true “smoking gun” that incriminates their originality. So it might remain, that these examples will continue to be the topic of collecting debate until judgment day, some collectors accepting them as “legal tender” others not.

Personally, the “shroud of uncertainty” that I feel cloaks these hats will keep me from owning one.

B. N. Singer

Mr Singer,

Outstanding commentary. I can't provide any concrete evidence to support the originality of these hats.

I still have a hard time believing that Heer reproductions were made to this quality 25 to 30 years ago.

If it is a fake, my hats off to the person who made them. A true artist at a time when original materials weren't that difficult to obtain. Not only did he make a hat thats being discussed after all these years, he also made insignia thats collectible in its own right. I wonder what his enlisted M43s and other uniform and insignia items look like. Probably all proudly displayed in all our collections .WR Jim

[90th Light]

Mr Singer, I am shocked with so many facts but credit where credit is due, very interesting and a good analysis. Great thread, Chris

[djpool]

I was checking out the photo thread looking at RK winner photos. I ran across a nice photo of an officers M43 hat with embroidered trap except in field grey.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...=75064&page=38

looks a lot like the insignia on the hat that started this discussion. WR Jim

[Mike Davis]

I was checking out the photo thread looking at RK winner photos. I ran across a nice photo of an officers M43 hat with embroidered trap except in field grey.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...=75064&page=38

looks a lot like the insignia on the hat that started this discussion. WR Jim

Very interesting. Can you also post the full image?

[djpool]

Very interesting. Can you also post the full image?

Hi Mike,

The owner gave me permission so here it is. Could you also move this thread to the cloth headgear forum. WR Jim