Announcement

**marisca lrommel** · 03-08-2018, 12:50 AM

This would be a correct case, with the legend "Order vom Deutschen Adler Verdienstkreuz 1 Stufe" and the characteristic closure of 1937

Attached Files

**marisca lrommel** · 03-08-2018, 12:56 AM

There is a variant of closure for the 1937 cases with a push button.

Another feature of this design is that the 1937 cases do not have the golden frame of the lid

Attached Files

**Peter J.** · 03-08-2018, 03:05 PM

That's great Jesus, I think it'll be lot easier to discuss this topic now

I still need some more time to connect the dots, when talking about cases and documents, but I think you've specified the basic timeline of the actual titles in the cases. How these titles can be connected to specific dates is as difficult as with the actual decorations. Bringing yet a 3rd element into the discussion (documents) and discuss them in conjunction with the other two, will be challenging to say the least. With that said I think it is extremely important we use the correct definition i.e. Stufe/Klasse, or else we'll have to spend a lot of time asking for clearifications. I know it would take some more typing to specify the exact wording of a case or document, but it'll be worth it in the end.

In order to prove I'm not a fundamentalist or language-police, I'll henceforward relate to the decorations as: 1st type-1937, fanned cross/sectioned reversed Star-1939, although I'm still not convinced about the latter.

I think you've summoned up the different titles, at least when were dealing with Dritte Stufe/5.Klasse, but some of the other classes will prove to be more difficult to explain. But like I said, I need more time.

cheers
Peter

**Runic** · 03-22-2018, 07:06 PM

Thanks for this interesting information, Peter and Jesus.

I’m enjoying reading over and viewing the progress you’ve made. Good work!

Here is an intriguing anomaly, from Christopher, that I think you guys who are actual experts will enjoy.

It is an award document for an Eagle Order Dritter Stufe with swords, dated 15 May 1944 - but the cross that accompanied it is ON the ribbon- so this should be the 5th class at this time. (After the December, 1943 change in grades and nomenclature.)

However, the case liner has 3rd stuffe on it, as does the award document! Interesting situation.

The award, case and document are directly from the veteran’s family, so they were awarded that way, in 1944.

Also, the AH signature may be in fact original, and not auto pen.

The recipient was a Finnish pilot who went to Germany to receive the award personally.

I read over his accomplishments and they were indeed quite something. He won a LOT of Finnish awards, but he was awarded the Eagle Order for special flight testing/training he did on a very large German transport glider in April/May of 1944.

Anyway, I hope this is interesting to the experts out there. Thanks to Christopher for sharing this.
Cheers, and keep up the good work.
R

Attached Files

1268F720-1C9A-4A37-B065-96E50A2E4087.jpg (53.3 KB, 81 views)

**Peter J.** · 03-23-2018, 09:33 AM

John, don't count me in among the experts, I'm merely interested

I believe you’ve illustrated the heart of the matter as to why it’s almost impossible to establish a 100% verifiable timeline for introduction of the various parts (decorations, cases and documents).

The initial official designation from 1937 was “Verdienstorden vom Deutschen Adler”, but this was to my knowledge never used on cases or documents, only on the front-page of the statutes given to the recipient. This official designation remained the same in the 1939 regulations, but was changed 1943 to “Deutschen Adlerordens” and had the “Stufe” changed to “Klasse”.

I’ll leave the early cases for now and focus on the last designation to illustrate my point. The cases for the 3<sup>rd</sup> Stufe was initially stamped “Orden vom Deutschen Adler Verdienstkreuz 3.Stufe” and at some point changed to “Verdienstkreuz III. Stufe des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler”. With the new regulations 1943 it was changed to “Deutscher Adlerorden V.Klasse”. This development was pretty much the same concerning the other classes. The latter case doesn’t leave any room for misinterpretations, it can only be a 1943-45 “V.Klasse”. However, things aren’t that simple when it comes to the following case: “Deutscher Adlerorden III.Stufe”! This is only one of several discrepancies and adding the documents to this equation would illustrate that. But that will have to wait. Chris's document is an eye opener, but for some odd reason documents with the destinction "Klasse" don't seem to have been used. Niemann claimed he had never encountered one, but I know there are a couple blanks out there.

cheers
Peter

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>SV</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

ontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w

ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="******45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->

**peter m** · 03-26-2018, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by ironfist View Post

Not going to get on a plane .
So I gave him a kick in the nuts via an e mail.
Lets wait for the reply if any .

He obviously wasnt put off with ur email as its still on sale lol

**marisca lrommel** · 03-27-2018, 03:29 PM

There are many anomalies in the Orders of the German Eagle from 1943-1945.

For example I have never seen an award certificate of the fourth class with this denomination.

In all that I have seen it appears as a second class even though the new regulations made it clear that from then on they became the fourth class of the German Eagle Order ...

I honestly believe that the Government of the Third Reich had more urgent and important things to worry in those moments that change the existing documents for the Order of the German Eagle adjusting them to the new regulacions and therefore continued using existing documents and cases and not yet modified ...

Have you seen any case with the legend recorded:

"Deutscher Adler Order Vierte Klasse ?. there are still many unknowns that can have an easy explanation if we think that Germany did not go through moments of glory at that moment ..

By the way....Have you seen an award certificate for the bronze medal? ... Have you seen any contemporary photo of someone with this medal? ... I'm curious about this doubt

**Peter J.** · 03-27-2018, 04:33 PM

Good points Jesus, there are a lot of things we don't know. Still I don't think lack of time was the main factor for these anomalies., as they managed to make a full revision of this Order and also institute new classes. I'm also puzzled by the lack of cases and documents with the title "Klasse", but there is actually cases for the Deutscher Adlerorden V.Klasse as well as the Deutscher Adlerorden I.Klasse. The strange part is why they bothered to not only change from Verdienstkreuz to Deutscher Adler without doing the appropriate change from Stufe to Klasse (except for the two formentioned classes), but also in the adjacent timeframe on the documents adapt "Der Führer" rather than "Der Deutsche Reichkanzler. But there are other anomalies prior to Dec. 1943, which challange the general consensus of today.

cheers
Peter

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 03:44 AM

I will make a comparison of internal legends of the different cases that accompanied the categories of the Order of the German Eagle in different periods. I start with the medal. On this occasion we see the first design medal of 1937 (verdienstmedaille), medal second design 1937 (deutsche verdienstmedaille), medal of Mümzant Wien (I do not know the case in which this model was granted since I have never seen a medal and case set with this marking) and finally on paper of the 1943 medal

Attached Files

comparativa leyendas medalla.jpg (176.0 KB, 85 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:00 AM

Third Stufe/fifth Klasse

Attached Files

comparativa leyendas tercera-quinta.jpg (81.1 KB, 84 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:06 AM

Third Stufe/Quarter Klasse

Attached Files

comparativa leyendas segunda-cuarta.jpg (88.1 KB, 88 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:15 AM

Neck Order 1 Stufe/ 3 Klasse

Attached Files

comparativa leyenda encomiendas primera-tercera.jpg (154.1 KB, 89 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:28 AM

Order with Star

Attached Files

comparativa leyendas orden con estrella.jpg (180.9 KB, 90 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:30 AM

1 St Klasse 1943

Attached Files

y_397.jpg (47.6 KB, 89 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:37 AM

Great Cross

(Same inner legend in all periods but small changes in the typeface)

Attached Files

comparativa leyenda gran cruz.jpg (77.7 KB, 92 views)

Announcement

German Eagle Order

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread