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**ironfist** · 11-01-2017, 11:13 AM

yep

Well said Runic.
Also well said peter.J
This area needs to be weeded out .There are far to many of these so called Eagle orders floating about.
Also floating about are complete tosser dealers that want to sell crap to line pockets,and to hell with history and the truth.
I am sorry to say E medals has just made a total twat of himself with this cross breed 1st class and then its a grand cross sash award ???????
Keep digging Mr Tusk ...
There is as far as I can possibly see NO NO NO proof in the slightest that Zimmerman had anything to do with them not one bit .Only seems to stem from people that want to sell crap.They will spill you a yarn for a saleZimmerman is about as believable as the guy who the other day tried selling me a U Boat ring that was RZM marked .That was forth reich also..
Why the older collectors have gone quiet ????? who knows but maby a few of them knew all along and some properly supported their dealer mates by passing the fakes for them.
Who knows its a crazy world.
Respect to those battle on for the truth.
Regards Pete

**Runic** · 11-19-2017, 08:00 PM

Pieter, and everyone -
Here is why real Eagle Order grades are so highly sought after. This photo shows a range of originals. Enjoy. This is my way of saying- yes, this is a beautiful award, worthy of collecting, just watch out, and make sure before you buy. BTW, photo courtesy of Christopher Ailsby, an expert on the subject. He has the real 1937 grand sash Order and badge, instead of the item that started this thread, a photo of his original which I will post, if anyone wants to see it.
R

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**Runic** · 11-19-2017, 08:35 PM

Group photo from my collection is next.

**Runic** · 11-19-2017, 08:37 PM

My Eagle Order First Class.

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**Serge M.** · 11-22-2017, 11:15 PM

It's a shame that a fake like this thread starting 1st class EO has to be introduced by a well known dealer. Kudos for the guys like Peter and others who exposed this fake.

Here's two EO's from my collection.

.

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**Serge M.** · 11-22-2017, 11:21 PM

Star of the EO.

.

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**Runic** · 11-25-2017, 07:58 PM

Grand Cross and Breast Star of the Eagle Order, 1937, awarded to the Governor of Rome: Courtesy of Christopher Ailsby. Provenance on this one is beyond dispute.

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**Runic** · 11-25-2017, 08:05 PM

Check the details on this compared to what started this thread. The pictures speak for themselves. Look at the difference in quality!

I will post more particulars, including this very sash and Grand Cross in wear by the Governor of Rome.

Again, courtesy of Christopher Ailsby, a pioneer in our hobby. The provenance on this one is as good as it gets. This is the highest grade of Eagle Order, except for the exceptions for Mussolini and Ribbentrop. Look at the hand-crafted Eagle. Circa 1937, gentleman. Enjoy!!!
I do!

R

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**Runic** · 11-25-2017, 08:07 PM

More details for the record:

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**Peter J.** · 11-26-2017, 10:20 AM

Runic, thanks for posting this beautiful GC set

cheers
Peter

**Runic** · 11-26-2017, 04:29 PM

Thank you Peter!! 👍🏼
R

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 06:46 PM

Hi all,
I meant to post a photo of the owner of the Grand Cross I posted earlier in this thread, actually wearing it. He was Piero Colonna di Paliano, Governor of Rome from 1936 - 1939. Im still searching for the photo in my records. I’m sure Christopher Ailsby has it in his files. He has great proof of provenance on this great badge set.

Until I find the photo, this will have to do:

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**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 06:55 PM

Nice award Doc from Christopher

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**Runic** · 12-01-2017, 07:23 PM

I have it, finally:
A picture of the Governor of Rome wearing the Grand Cross....enjoy the real thing,with provenance, meine Herren:

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24CC43EB-8E70-43A2-A6DD-08AA345AE3E7.jpeg (68.0 KB, 101 views)

**Peter J.** · 12-06-2017, 04:37 PM

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>SV</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

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ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="******45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I bought my first German Eagle Order in the mid seventies, a cased III.Stufe for the staggering sum of €40! The reference books I had at my disposal at the time were Littlejohn/Dodkins “Orders, Decorations…” (1968) and Werlich’s “Orders and Decorations of all nations” (1974), both with general accounts for the various classes. These were followed by Angolia’s publication “For Führer and Fatherland” (1978), with a slightly more elaborated account and held in high esteem for several decades, also an interesting article from C.Ailsby (1980). When I eventually came onboard this forum +14 years ago, a new world opened up concerning information and I tried to follow each thread about DAO. I also initiated several threads on the topic and admittedly quoted the fore mentioned publications in these discussions. It became evident there was limited interest to ventilate this topic and that there was no full consensus amongst the collectors about several aspects i.g. markings, timeframe of production and so forth. Several versions, previously unknown to the vast majority of collectors, also appeared on the scene and an honest attempt to deal with this topic was made by collector colleague Jesus Ruiz last year, with his two books. As much as I fully respect the initiative and serious motives, there are still parts where I differ in opinion. The following will therefore be an attempt from my part to address these reservations, as well as the content in earlier publications.

Collectors have always tried to find ways of authenticating their collectables and used several tools i.g. veteran purchases, official regulations, contemporary/and later publications and of course forums like this. The official regulations posted in i.g. Uniformen-Markt or Uniformen-Zeitung don’t leave much room for interpretation, but contemporary publications used by collectors for reference ought to be scrutinized i.g the 1937 edition of “Das Dritte Reich” and “Orders and Decorations of all Nations” by Hessethal und Schreiber (1940). The illustration from “Das Dritte Reich” in Angolia’s book clearly shows the lack of any fan for the jump-ring and the breast star for the Grand Cross is not correct. It’s been suggested the six-pointed breast star for a Commander has been used for illustration. This is not correct either, it’s a six-pointed star as suggested, but the said star, as well as the center cross have the correct size for a Grand Cross star (should be 8-pointed though). An interesting observation to be made is the Verdienstmedaille. This 1st type of Medal has been hiding in plain sight for all years, but given the poor quality of the image, it’s not so strange, should you not know what to look for. Even more surprising is how the post-war authors have missed the actual illustration in the 1937 announcement published in Uniformen-Markt 15.5 1937.

I don’t have access to Hessenthal und Schriber’s book, only an except about the medal. The specifications were as follow: Medal in matt silver-coloured metal, 38mm and 24g. Ribbon light red 37mm with 1mm white and 2mm black outer stripes, and a 1 1/2mm white stripe on the edges.
With a better magnified image, the recessed pebbled center is clear to see (contrary to the later version with a slightly convex smooth surface), but even more significantly the shorter letter “m” than seen on the later version. Although the medal in my possession is marked “900”, the finish is indeed matt silver. Given the rarity of this type (I know of only 5!), I think it’s fair to assume the suggested relatively short period of awarding of this type is plausible. With that said, it is odd this early type is still used for illustration in the 1940 edition of the book.

There are a lot of assumptions regarding this topic, but also a few things we know for certainty. The regulation from 1937 specifies the various classes (Stufe) and their size, the 1939 the addition of two more classes and the addition of swords, the 1943 the new classification (Klasse) and additional classes introduced and finally the 1944 directive for which rank qualified for a certain class. Other than that, I seriously believe the conclusions based on the actual markings there are to be found are conveniently associated with the fore mentioned regulations. New research has surfaced and the scenario suggested by i.g. Angolia is IMHO open for debate. More on this will follow.

In the early references, two major types of the crosses and breast stars were presented i.e. the 1937 crosses with a plain jump-ring and a breast star with a straight pin, and the 2nd type with a fan to support the ribbon ring/loop on the crosses and tapered pin on the breast stars. The actual introduction of the 2nd type has been debated for several years, but this type remained the same for the remaining years of the war. Consequently any attempt to try and differentiate a 1943 award from an earlier issued would seem unnecessary, as they both look the same. However, with a correct interpretation of the various marks found on the decorations, this would enable a distinction to be made, thus making it possible to conclude if an award belong to a document showing a specific date.

The markings on the DAO’s are basically silver marks, LDO-numbers, PK-numbers and single digits placed on the top of the actual fan. There are also single digits/or letters found on the top of the ball on the 3rd Stufe crosses, for which no information has surfaced as of yet.

The LDO numbers (L/#) were implemented after the announcement from the PK (Präsidialkanzlei) in July 1941 and stipulated the awards for the private market sold in the LDO outlets to be marked with this designation. This routine was not subject to any changes for the remainder of the war.

The notion by Angolia that the PK-mark (21 for Godet) ) was introduced in conjunction with the 1943 regulations, is as already suggested from my part an unsubstantiated claim. In the well researched publication by Dietrich Maerz in 2007, it is suggested the introduction was made early 1944, but that time line has since then changed to 2nd half of 1942 (according to mr Dietrich). The reason for this assumption is based on findings from the last ten years in the field of Knight Crosses. With my limited interest in that award, it is impossible for me to elaborate on those findings, but I’m fairly convinced mr Dietrich can back them up. Provided this assumption is correct, I firmly believe a DAO would be marked accordingly as well. I’ll add more to validate my statement later on.

The single digit that can be found on the awards produced with the so called Godet design is according to Angolia present in order to distinguish the actual class. These are the suggested possibilities:
5. Klasse, 5 on top of the fan, “21”
4. Klasse, 4 on base of pin, “21”
3. Klasse, fan marked 3. “21”
2. Klasse, 2 on the fan pattern, “21”
1. Klasse, 1 on upper arm ring, “21”
Interested parties should read this book, as there are inconsistencies in the way the various positions are related to and they also don’t cover the fanned type with the distinction “Stufe”, i.g. the Dritte Stufe with a “3” on the top of the fan. I have in my possession a cross marked this way in conjunction with “900” and “21” on the ribbon ring! This is IMO a clear indication the Godet PK-number was used before Dec. 1943.

I’m going to take a brake here and let you guys digest the content. There are a lot more specifics to discuss and I’ll elaborate on them as well, should there be any serious attempts from my fellow collectors to do the same. If not I’m inclined to perceive this endeavour as quite meaningless.

cheers
Peter

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