Makers mark in the Neck German Eagle Order-(In my own judgement)
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Marks-Part 2Comment
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Very rare and inexplicable marksComment
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As you say, my friend Peter, it is not yet written about this precious Order and we still have a lot to learn.
I do not want to give the impression of having the last word and respect your opinion.Comment
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Jesus, by using the perception I have regarding the significance of the marks found on DAO's (and yes it's not written in stone or vaguely confirmed by actual proof) I'll give it a go. Since these discussions are conducted mainly between the two of us, I'd like to present alternative scenarios for the readers of this thread. I also invite them to question my input, should they disagree or need further elaboration.Originally posted by marisca lrommel View Post
1st image: I believe the fanned type of the Erste Sufe (Grade) was marked solely with a "900" from the time of it's introduction. When that occured is still debated, but we can leave that for now.
2nd image: Once again, there is no factual information to support an introduction of the "21" in 1943. In the world outside the DAO, there appears to be a common consensus amongst the collectors regarding other decorations of an implementation in mid-1942, or possibly even erlier. There is also the 3rd Stufe I've shown before, which features "900", "21" and a "3" on the fan! I've got an open mind though, perhaps you can provide information that would give credibility to your opinion.
Image 3: Producer Schickle in Pforzheim most evidently used L/15 on some of his products, but didn't receive any PK-number, as he was forced out of business in mid 1941. Hence the use of Godet's L-number (L/50) most likely occured close to the introduction of said L-numbers (spring 1941).
Image 4: This is most probably one part of a II.Klasse set and yes, awarded after Dec 1943. Prior to this date the set was named "Verdienstkreuz mit Stern" and like I suggested in my previous post, the neck cross in a set of the latter was most probably not marked with the class designation (because there were no such creation to refer to, contrary to the II.Klasse).
Image 5: With the same logic used on these "Erste Stufe" (which I assume they are, as there are no references to ther size), I assume they are correctly marked
"Erste Stufe" (1.Grade).
I honestly don't have a clue. The "E" or "F" could possibly be a "3", but I can't really say fore sure, based on those images.
With all this said, it presents a mindblowing insight of the complexity i.e. it might not be that easy to tick of the various classes and place them neatly in their respective boxes. Thanks for your attention
cheers
PeterComment
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Sorry I did not answer you before Peter.
It is my opinion that it is also the same opinion of veteran collectors of the German Eagle Order in Spain and other veteran collectors worldwide.
Your theory, at the moment is not demonstrable, since there is no evidence to support it, however the markings of the manufacturers "Nummern der Präsidialkanzlei" (21 for Godet) and the LDO numbers (L / 50 for Godet) it is clear that they were approved in 1941 but they begin to be used from the middle of 1942 while the numbers of the "Präsidialkazlei" were used for the prizes delivered directly and LDO for private sales.
By this logic, before 1942 we could find markings like "900" indicating only the content or quality of the silver in decorations made by Godet and later, from 1942 we can see decorations marked with "900 21" or "900 L / 50 "
Although this regulation is approved in 1941, we did not find prizes in the period 1941-1942 with the new marking.
My theory is that the manufacturers wanted to end the production of medals marked "900" before releasing new productions that fit the new authorized markings and this began to take place, in the case of the German Eagle Order with the approval on June 27, 1943 of the new Regulatory Ordinances that were subsequently published in the "Reichsgessetzblatt" on June 5, 1944Comment
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Jesus, it would be a lot easier to discuss these markings, should you post a scan of this "Reichsgessetzblatt" on June 5, 1944.
cheers
PeterComment
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In the Reichsgessetzblatt it says nothing of the marks, only of the new regulation. It is the one that appears in my book translated into English "The Meritory Order of the German Eagle volume 1"Comment
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I think you have not understood what I'm saying. I meant that the markings granted to the manufacturers were not carried out by them until the new regulation of the Order of the German Eagle of 1943 was approved. It was since then that all the prizes awarded already had the marks granted by the " Präsidialkanzlei "and LDO for private sale.
What happened since 1941, the date on which these marks were granted until 1943?
The manufacturers continued distributing the stock with which they counted that it was marked with 900 only.
It's my theoryComment
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Ok, I thought for a second this regulation had relevance to the actual markings.
I'll address your response bit by bit in order to staighten out the question marks:
"It is my opinion that it is also the same opinion of veteran collectors of the German Eagle Order in Spain and other veteran collectors worldwide."
No offense intended, but it's obvious you've picked the brains of these so called "veteran collectors worldwide" or else you wouldn't know what they think. Instead of going through you, perhaps they would care to comment them selves. If not this is all hearsay.
This is one of the problems I struggle with here, is how to differentiate the concepts in a sentence. Perhaps due to language issues, but please address them in separate sentences. The PK-numbers and the LDO-numbers are two totally different concepts.
"however the markings of the manufacturers "Nummern der Präsidialkanzlei" (21 for Godet) and the LDO numbers (L / 50 for Godet) it is clear that they were approved in 1941 but they begin to be used from the middle of 1942".
I assume you refer to the LDO-numbers only about 1942, but what suggests the implement from middle-42? I gave you the Schickle example, why would the DAO be any different?
"while the numbers of the "Präsidialkazlei" were used for the prizes delivered directly and LDO for private sales."
Are you now suggesting the PK-numbers on awarded pieces also were implemented from mid-42? I still haven't seen a PK-number on any L/50 marked DAO, but I don't know it all.
"My theory is that the manufacturers wanted to end the production of medals marked "900" before releasing new productions that fit the new authorized markings and this began to take place, in the case of the German Eagle Order with the approval on June 27, 1943 of the new Regulatory Ordinances that were subsequently published in the "Reichsgessetzblatt" on June 5, 1944".
I still have no clue what that June 27 Regulatory Ordinances is, nor the June 5 1944 ditto. I do know the new classification system was introduced 27 Dec. 1943 though and published in the Reichgesetzblatt 5. Jan 1944.
"My theory is that the manufacturers wanted to end the production of medals marked "900" before releasing new productions that fit the new authorized markings"
There is merit in this suggestion, why not get rid of an existing stock. But seriously, how difficult would it be to stamp an additional "21" on the ring or pin?
Jesus, I realize a lot of my reservations (which are not written in stone) may contradict some of the content in your book, but I gather you'll look beyond that and continue trying to establish a plausible scenario for the DAO.
cheers
Peter
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You have not understood anything at all of what I said ... as you say, possibly because of the language.
Let me see how to explain it....
I have not talked to all the veteran collectors of the world but I have spoken with many of them and NONE, except you have shown a different scenario to the one I proposeOriginally posted by Peter J. View Post
In that we agree. I talk about PK numbers on one hand (21 for Godet) and LDO on the other (L / 50 for Godet)Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
In general PK numbers and LDO numbers began to be used in mid-1942Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
And who has said that there were Orders of the Eagle with the two systems of marking at the same time? I say that the numbers and marks PK and LDO began to use in mid-1942 but were authorized in 1941. There were copies marked with numbers PK (900 21) for direct delivery to the winners and there were copies with LDO marking (900 L / 50) for private sale.Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
the last regulating Ordinance was approved on December 27, 1943 and published in the Reichsgessetzblatt of January 5, 1944. If I said those dates I could be wrong when translating since January in English pronounced as June in Spanish. ENERO=JANUARY in English JUNIO=June in EnglishOriginally posted by Peter J. View Post
Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
You have to think like a manufacturer ... imagine that you have already manufactured hundreds of copies of the Order of the German Eagle with the needle marked 900 ready to be distributed, a new ordinance appears that indicates that from now on you have to mark the orders with 900 and 21 .... Would you remove all the needles already manufactured and assembled in the finished copies to put some new needles that only include one more number? ........ Among other things, apart from the loss of money and time and the dedication of the workers to change hundreds of needles would have to have a new die with the 21 to make new marked needles ..... would you do so if you were the manufacturer or would liquidate the existing stock? before starting to manufacture the new orders?
Well ... for me, the most plausible scenario at the moment is the one that I defend .... explain a more convincing theory that is not limited to denying what I say. Explain your theory with convincing dates and data and I may have to take my hat off before youOriginally posted by Peter J. View PostComment
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I want to appeal to the participation of more users and readers of this thread .... I know that we are many more who read daily the opinions that we put Peter J and I:rendirse:Comment
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In general PK numbers and LDO numbers began to be used in mid-1942
Jesus, thanks for keeping this train going, we now seem to have reached the first station. Throughout our previous discussions you’ve categorically advocated the account presented by Angolia, even as late as 5 days ago when you posted your illustrations. It’s great to see you’ve finally accepted, not a fact, but rather a plausible timeline based on circumstantial evidence as a possibility.
I have not talked to all the veteran collectors of the world but I have spoken with many of them and NONE, except you have shown a different scenario to the one I propose
Correct, that would have been quite an achievement. However, there are actually collectors out there with different opinions.
All decorations with the fanned crosses/Stars with sectioned reverse are basically identical and the only difference is how PKZ distinguished their statues i.e. Stufe versus Klasse. It pertinent to mention the quality of the decorations awarded by the PKZ and the ditto sold in LDO outlets did not differ. To my knowledge no regulations dealing with the actual implementation of the PK numbers have surfaced as of yet. I (or we as collectors) don’t know the significance of the PK numbers other than to distinguish a specific producer. It would be irrelevant for any recipient to know the origin of the actual producer, hence it’s more probably for the PKZ in order to easily identify a specific example. For the average collector this is really of no importance, a plausible timeline is important only when a decoration is to be scrutinized in conjunction with the case/document. To emphasize: this is the main reason for my persitent involvement in these discussions i.e. the risk of dismissing perfectly legit sets, based on a presumption that might not be correct. And no, I don't suggest my input is correct, but merely an alternative view
The L-numbers are a different ballgame though. The regulations from March 1941 stipulated the L-number (in this case L/50) to be imprinted on the decoration. The reason for this was probably IMHO to identify any products in said LDO outlets which didn’t fill the requirements of quality. It’s obvious this regulation wasn’t followed to the letter, but with existing L/50 marked DAO’s, the implementation definitely occurred (unless they are all fakes, which I don’t think is the case). Schickle managed to produce products with the L/number within a 3-month period. Hence I think Godet had the capacity achieve that as well.
I also have some reflections of the following:
You have to think like a manufacturer ... imagine that you have already manufactured hundreds of copies of the Order of the German Eagle with the needle marked 900 ready to be distributed, a new ordinance appears that indicates that from now on you have to mark the orders with 900 and 21 .... Would you remove all the needles already manufactured and assembled in the finished copies to put some new needles that only include one more number? ........ Among other things, apart from the loss of money and time and the dedication of the workers to change hundreds of needles would have to have a new die with the 21 to make new marked needles ..... would you do so if you were the manufacturer or would liquidate the existing stock? before starting to manufacture the new orders?
Just like you say, the decorations we discuss here were most probably marked “900”, both the awarded examples and the ones for the LDO outlets. We don’t know for certainty when Godet started to add their PK-number “21” to their products, but no do we know when the regulation (if any) was implemented. Furthermore, except for the alleged Zimmermann DAO’s (which I find futile to discuss), the only DAO’s from this period were produced by Godet. As for an existing stock with hundreds of decorations marked with “900” only and an explicit requirement from the PKZ to add an additional “21”, I would as a producer not hesitate to add that, rather than liquidate perfectly manufactured pieces. To produce a stamp relatively fast for “21”, if forced to, shouldn’t present any problems for a company like Godet and adding said number on an existing pin or ring without removing them from the cross/Star would be way more productive than making a new decoration from scratch (IMO). With that said, I think we ought to admit to the fact we don’t know for sure, rather than presenting a definitive timeline as an undisputed fact.
I know you never mentioned the “900” marked pieces in conjunction with the decorations delivered to the LDO outlets. By spring 1941 I believe it’s fair to assume most of said shops had already the needed pieces in their assortment, mainly as window displays. With close to no potential customers in those shops , there was really no need for the producer to re-stamp any existing stock. That is unless the shops decided to play by the book 100% and only offer stuff which featured the correct mandatory markings. Arrg, I need a brake.
cheers
Peter
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Friend Peter.
I have read your opinions and I can agree on 95% at least. I finally see that we can agree on something.
As for your insistence on this investigation so that you can be sure that a supposedly legitimate set is truly true, I agree with you on this as I have seen on many occasions German Eagle Orders that are sold as original sets and are formed for example by a 1St Eagle Order version 1937 and a case that by its characteristics, closure and internal legend belongs to a 1St or 3Rd eagle Order of 1939 or 1943 .... it is clear that the cases of the German Eagle Orders 1937 have to present a legend type "Order vom Deutschen Adler Verdienstkreuz III Stufe" those of 1939 "Verdienstkreuz III Stufe des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler", and the cases version 1945 "Deutscher Adler Order V Klasse" ... this in the case by example of the third/fifth class. There are also many differences in the shape of boxes, closures, gilding, etc. See comparison of interior legendsComment
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An example of this that I say. In the image below we see a 1St German Eagle Order model 1937-design 2, which some attributed to Deschler ...
The case that accompanies this copy is characteristic of the design of 1939 that accompanied the Godet awards so it follows that the seller joined the case and the prize to get a complete set to sell at a higher price.
The interior legend of this case shows "Verdienstkreuz 1 Stufe des ordens vom Deutschen Adler" and a characteristic closure of the godet cases.Comment
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