German Eagle Order

[Peter J.]

Gents, please share your thoughts about this creation.

cheers
Peter

[Peter J.]

Ok, 42 content viewers. Let's spice it up with the sales pitch.

[Peter J.]

160 and counting

[andrewb]

Hi Peter,

Up to 173 now so to end the suspense I'll give you my take on this GEO. Mind you, except having one cased 2nd grade with swords, my knowledge on these are at best so so.

Here is what I see.

First off, I have never seen an Order where the wreath is not attached to the arms. It's my understanding that BOTH wingtips and the wreath should be soldered to the arms.

The enamel work on the arms overlap onto the edges, more so in the centre which is not what you would expected to see on an original 1st class order.

The Eagles look nothing like a Type 2 Godet Order.

No silver 900 marking. All Eagle Orders, so I believe, were marked with at least the 900 Silver content.

Overall, just a badly made 1st class German Eagle Order

Well, how did I go?

Regards,
AB.

[ironfist]

Yep

Andrew I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.
What the flying xxxx is a Deschler and sohn Munchen 9

Where did you find this .Peter j
Please do not say from a reputable dealer ,dear god do not say that.
If so I will have to hop on a plane and give them a good kick in the nuts.

[andrewb]

Andrew I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.
What the flying xxxx is a Deschler and sohn Munchen 9

Where did you find this .Peter j
Please do not say from a reputable dealer ,dear god do not say that.
If so I will have to hop on a plane and give them a good kick in the nuts.

Hi Ironfist,

Book the plane ticket. I'm afraid it is. Currently for sale for $6550 USD.

Here is the link.


https://www.emedals.com/europe/germa...-deschler-sohn

Regards,
AB.

[ironfist]

ok

Not going to get on a plane .
So I gave him a kick in the nuts via an e mail.
Lets wait for the reply if any .

[andrewb]

Regards,
AB.

[ironfist]

odd

Just to bang on a little more.
This guy has handled many and I mean MANY of these over the years .
How didn't he see it .or maybe did ????

[Peter J.]

Andrew and Pete, thanks for your input. I'm off for a collector show early tomorrow morning, but will elaborate further when I get back.

cheers
Peter

[ironfist]

not sure

Hello again guys.
I have been turning this over and over in my head as to WHY Peter posted it .
Is there another reason .
I have been looking up every dam thing I could on these .There is to date NO real evidence (as far as I can see ) that Deschner ever made this award .Unlike Godet who proudly put all their items in sales catalogues .
For Some reason I cannot seen to find anything to do with DOAs and Deschner in any sales catalogues .???????????????????????????????????
So why do we find this reference to it all the time.I have had a reference saying it is to do with the SILBER stamping or the 800 mark also a 900 mark on the early stars .Again it contradicts itself because the ones I have seen all look different .
What we need to see is original sets showing these early types together .Also a Catalogue or anything from deschner saying something about it .
Rearly these could be re-designed Godet .The early ones that propose to be Deschner may be a early bad designed and made Godet.
Of course there may be also the point these may all have been made post war and no one has considered that yet.Plenty of good old fakes still being excepted as originals throughout our hoby.I still question the quality of these early ones (not good).
Please someone show me some real facts (proof)
The one first posted may be a post war copy .Then de-Nazified so could be worn then re-solderes to make the money.
Would explain the damaged wreaths ???
Getting to dam confusing as no one has the answers

[Peter J.]

Hi guys,

I was absolutely flabbergasted when I saw this monstrosity on mr Turk's auction, but even worse his description of the item in question. Btw, the following info has now been added to his sale:
" Footnote: It is assumed that the order as well as the medal was manufactured by Deschler & Sohn in Munich) or Wilhelm Deumer in Luedenscheid). It is assumed that a slight design changed occurred at or before April 20, 1939, with the change to its final manufacturer, Godet in Berlin)."

Leaving the actual badge for the moment, I'd like to address the concept knowledge and how it is perceived. One intellegent man once said that collecting TR militaria is 10% knowledge and 90% guesswork. Although these figures have levelled out over time, I don't thnk he's all that wrong. Today we have guys in their 30ies writing COA's and the obvious question is of course: when did we reach these devine skills in regards of knowledge?

There were TR collectors even during the war by using the correct channels in Germany. There were also collectors and dealers in the 50ies and 60ies, but the actual info on the actual decorations was not there as we experience it today. Doehle and Hessenthal/Schreiber were an option, but with their rarity, go figure.
Klietmann came out with a thin b/w publication in 1957 (if I'm correct) and Dodkins/Littlejohn followed suit 1968 with some written info. Angolia's book from 1978 raised the bar, but as we all know that book was also infested with incorrect info. Right about that time (or a few years earlier) the beloved priceguides hit the community and in just a few years the market exloded.

I'll ask you guys, does any one seriously believe any individual at that time had the skills to establish what was 100% original? I assume the response will be no, so what happened in the next 20 years. Mind you, most of the so called reference books were published by dealers. I'm not suggesting they were ignorant, but looking back 40 years it's painfully obvoius their main agenda is to sell stuff. The following excerpt is from another thread about dealers and COA's:

"One of the must "respectable" celebrity dealers told me at the SOS, how he makes money out of returned fakes, by just selling it again. It is so called "boomerang" sales and works well with a COA. It keeps on coming back and the dealer keeps on selling it, until it stops coming back. He looses nothing and makes money on each sale and he is deemed a nice guy for accepting the return. Clever."

The situation of today is slighly different though. Internet and the exchange of thougths in conjunction with some serious research by devoted collectors have broadend our perception and knowledge considerably. Still it's important to excercise due dilligence when it comes to source material. Which brings us to the Deschler connection.

When I bought my first DAO 40 years ago (cased Dritte Stufe $40) I was fully content with the account for the various classes presented by Angolia and that followed me for several decades. However as time went by and Internet appeared, it became apparent that there were a lot more to be scrutinized. I could post a couple of pages about that, but after several attempts I wont be bothered and will focus only on the Deschler topic.

Initially the 1937 series of DAO was labelled as "unknown producer", but out of the blue Deschler became a candidate. What followed is a great example of what I earlier emphasized, check the sources! The following was published in a book last year:

"We do not know for sure who was thea authorized manufacturer that produced the original model of the Order although many collectors say it was Deschler % Sohn by the characterristics of eagles and other details". Who are those initiated collectors and what are those features that would conclusivly confirming the statement.

Next was an article published here and in Dietrich's magazine, where this mantra was quoted. A reference to Nimmergut (2001) withtthe assumption that also Godet could be a candidate added, as well as one from "Reichskanzlei, Akt. Betr. Orden und Ehrenzeichen – Allgemeine-Orden 1/Bd. 2 1934-1939, Bundesarchiv Koblenz". I haven't read Nimmergut's arguments and dispite several attempts failed to find the latter. What I have found is contemporay documentation of who the actual designer and producer of the very first type of the Medal were. The fact that only 3 participants with over 300 viewers have bothered to get involved in this thread, doesn't give me much hope of ever seeing that latter quote.

My point: the quotes presented here will probably be cut and pasted into the next publication about DAO, giving the assuption even more credibility. Who knows, maybe the truth will be reveiled in that latter reference, but before that, let's be very careful of who we claim a specific decoration is attributed to. I personally believe there are a lot of "un-knowns" and also contradictions in regards of the present opinions. So come on guys, let us skip our egos and work with facts and focus on the plausible.

Heck, I thought this was plenty for you guys to endure, but I feel I need to address the sales pitch posted here. Early type Deschler & Sohn "Verdienstorden vom Deutschen Orden 1.Klasse/1st Class". This is the mother of examples of what can happen when we as collectors (and dealers) can't be bothered with using the correct lingo i.e. differentiate Stufe from Klasse. Stufe equals Grade and Klasse equels class, period! With that said, the above description contradicts any kind of logic. The 1.Klasse cross featured a fan and was introduced in 1943, hence it can't be an early Deschler 1.Klasse (which he specificly advertise it as). The correct title should be "Erster Stufe" or III. Klasse for the fanned 1943 version.

I've encountered at least 6 different versions of the DAO over last two years, previously unknown to me. Are all of these the real McCoy? I honestly don't know, nor do I know the correct accout for the other pieces we all think we comprehend, but I would love to see some serious involvment on this topic, also from the old time collectors who actually have some info to share.

[ironfist]

e medals

Wow Peter you go mate.
I could not agree more 40 years of copy and paste.
Well before I join you in dialogue.I would like to post the passing shot as Mr Barry Tusk shot at me as we left conversation about this fishing weight he has for sale for $6500 .
Pete,

here is an input from advanced collector Trevor Ristov, and his opinion why type I (one of the reasons) was attributed to Deschler.



Hey Barry,

Here is a PDF of the chapter on the history of Deschler.
The first type is considered to be made by Deschler not just because of the eagle design but also because Deschler used a very distinctive SILBER and 800 or 900 stamp on their EKs and other awards and this stamp is found on the DAO first type (see attached).

Hope this is of some help.

Best,
Trevor

hope the picture works as you can see one is supplied by mr Tusk . THEY ARE NOT ALL THE BLOODY SAME ARE THEY.
But he was quite sure that this top top ADVANCED collector was sure 100%.
The Guy needs glasses.
Dam I need to size the file.
I may need a year.
Yes Peter I myself know of 4 different ones .One marked 925 .
I am starting to think that some of these odd ones that turn up are maby jewellers that have thought to themselves ,ime going to have a bash at making one of those eagle orders.
Either war time or maybe even post war.
So well made and lovley age to it ?????? we may never know.I have a piece that is said to be (jewler made ) is there any evidence that anyone would be allowed to make them???
Regards Pete

[Peter J.]

Thanks Pete,

I'd love have seen that pdf-file, but can't really argue without any images. From my previous response "I've encountered at least 6 different versions of the DAO over last two years, previously unknown to me. Are all of these the real McCoy? I honestly don't know, nor do I know the correct accout for the other pieces we all think we comprehend, but I would love to see some serious involvment on this topic, also from the old time collectors who actually have some info to share." Perhaps Deschler indeed made the first type, I don't know but it's interesting to note that despite all my previous attempts and trust me, I think I've monitered all DAO threads for the last +14 years, this pdf-file has never found it's way here.

Trevor, if you monitor this thread, is this alleged typical Deschler 900-mark also credited to the Medal? I have the outmost respect for your experience, so please excuse me for rocking the boat. A while back we had a discussion about the alleged Zimmermann DAO's in bronze, which you confirmed as contemporary produced crosses, due to the fact that you had owned one and you were able to conclude that due to the weight and the colour. This would of course be a significant detail to ponder over, but when I inquired about the time of the purchase, I believe you said you bought it around 2011 and sold it a few years later. Well, in my book the doesn't qualify as proof of these bronze pieces prior to the alleged hoard find in 2008 (?). What puzzles me even more is that the address provided for the Zimmermann facility was challanged withy yet a secondary address and at that point the thead turned stone dead. Despite my repeaded attempts to have this followed up, nothing happened.

Mr Turk eventually bought a lot of the hoard and his initial comment about the DAO V.Klasse was basically: in all my years I,ve never encoutered a piece like this!!
It's remarkable how he has managed to sell at least +10 of them in good/perfect condition. I forgot one comment in my previous, how can a dealer in the know present a 50mm cross with IT'S sash

cheers
Peter

[ironfist]

trying

Hi
Working on that file.
At the moment I am working to getting my arse down to the pub.
Looking forward to helping you on this.(if I can be of any use).
Don't worry about rocking the boat I think we may be past there already
regards Pete