Thanks, that's a really nice one. I would like to own one of those and it will have to be a Souval in the end, but I haven't yet seen one for which I'm prepared to fork out the asking price.
-
-
Hi Alex.
I am sorry but this is not Souval. Even the latest Third Class crosses produced by Souval, were built with two rivets. The pin on this was incredibly modified, this one is longer and the L/58 was erased deliberately. Carefully note the difference in polishing on the middle portion of the pin, where the mark L/58 should be. Also, in all cases the crosses produced by Souval were highly polished on the back and this one is not.
On the front of the cross we see on the centerpiece (GPB), a silver outline around the Swastika and the initials of the NSDAP. As Deumer, Souval manufactured his pieces with the outline and letters in gold. I also noticed that the Swasticas of the side eagles, have a black painted background, I don´t like that. Deumer or Souval never constructed any cross this way, and I don´t like the quality of that black enamel.
This situation strongly suggests that someone's using the dies of Rudolf Souval again, as I already mentioned in my previous posts. In this forum, not long ago, I noticed a copy of a First Class cross with similar characteristics.
By the way, two more of those fakes in bronze will be in auction. Guess who?
Also, and again (Old Story) , several complete set of dies will be sold. Did you see that? Do you still have courage to buy Third Reich?
Best Regards to you all.
Chris.Last edited by Chris Obermeyer; 10-30-2015, 03:24 PM.Comment
-
Rumor has it that there is a lady in Ohio,I will not say which city that has a few of these awards.Her father was a veteran brought them back.
Everytime i do a hotel buy there, I hope she comes in, but never has.A couple of collectors that I know have seen the awards, but she just will not sell.
Thanks,
BobComment
-
Yes, its a post-war Souval.
StanComment
-
7Comment
-
6Comment
-
5Comment
-
4Comment
-
3Comment
-
Here is my Souval 3d class with four rivets.
The quality is first rate.
Opinions?Comment
-
That double catch is something I have not seen before on a Souval D.O.Comment
-
Originally posted by Chris Obermeyer View PostHi Alex.
I am sorry but this is not Souval. Even the latest Third Class crosses produced by Souval, were built with two rivets. The pin on this was incredibly modified, this one is longer and the L/58 was erased deliberately. Carefully note the difference in polishing on the middle portion of the pin, where the mark L/58 should be. Also, in all cases the crosses produced by Souval were highly polished on the back and this one is not.
On the front of the cross we see on the centerpiece (GPB), a silver outline around the Swastika and the initials of the NSDAP. As Deumer, Souval manufactured his pieces with the outline and letters in gold. I also noticed that the Swasticas of the side eagles, have a black painted background, I don´t like that. Deumer or Souval never constructed any cross this way, and I don´t like the quality of that black enamel.
This situation strongly suggests that someone's using the dies of Rudolf Souval again, as I already mentioned in my previous posts. In this forum, not long ago, I noticed a copy of a First Class cross with similar characteristics.
By the way, two more of those fakes in bronze will be in auction. Guess who? Also, and again (Old Story) , several complete set of dies will be sold. Did you see that? Do you still have courage to buy Third Reich?
Best Regards to you all.
Chris.
Hi Chris,
with all due respect, but I will have to disagree with you. From my experiance as a collector of specificly post war Souval awards, I have a different experiance. To me it's a typical later Souval made piece. The absence of the rivets on later pieces is common with Souval. Souval awards in generell vary so much in the way they were produced over the years - I could possibly write a book about it..
If you are familiar with the Pioneer of Labor for example, you will notice that early 1950's made pieces feature rivets too, while pieces - even those made in the early 1960's still in very nice quality don't have rivets anymore. Same thing on the Star of the Grand Cross - early 1960 pieces feature rivets - late 1960's produced pieces with an open hinge block don't have them anymore.
However I don't want to turn this thread into a post war Souval production variant post, so this is really all I would like to say about it this topic.
Souvals dies may be around somewhere, but again to me it's a just later Souval produced piece. I also don't see a whole bunch of questionable German Orders which were possibly produced with those dies.
Best regards,
AlexComment
-
Actually the double catch can be found on several Souval made pieces made in the early to mid 1960's. I have a Spanish Cross with Diamonds and a whole bunch of other pieces that feature exactly this type of catch .Originally posted by reichenberg View Post
Best regards,
AlexComment
-
Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post
A nice Souval German Order. Produced sometime between the early to mid 1960's. The double catch makes it quite easy to date. Souval used so much of St&L's hardware.
While this variant is not the earliest, it's still very nicely done. Also the rivets are still in place
Best regards,
AlexComment
-
Hello Alex and members of the Forum.Originally posted by Alex W. View Post
You are wrong Alex. Unfortunately, in the meantime, you forgot that the third and the last type of German Orders made by Souval weren't in silver, but a mixture of white metals. I can clearly see the "935" mark there and that narking is real Souval, although as I have already said, this pin has been extremely modified. So, If that German Order is one of the last manufactured how can it be made in silver? And that Third Class is silver for sure.
I never, ever saw a German Order by Souval without rivets, in all classes, or without the high polishing on the reverse. The absence of the rivets on later pieces may be commom with other Souval awards but not the German Order.
This Third Class Cross belonging to Mr. Gary Symonds is a typical cross of the last type of German Order made by Souval. NOT in silver but still with a good quality gold wash, riveted and well polished on the reverse. Notice on the front of the cross that the golden frame around that black enamel is a little to the left, also the heads of all eagles lack details. The construction of the swastikas on all eagles are different as well, when compared to awards previously made. I have seen this many times. I just think it's very strange the lack of "L/58" or even "L/21" markings on that cross. However it is well known that Souval sometimes did not mark his decorations.
Mr. Symonds cross is a true, real late, Souval Third Class German Order.
And so that is my opinion.
Best Regards,
Chris.Comment
Comment