3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[Thorsten B.]

Unfortunately way too many pieces of these around.

[Stan]

Hi guys,

Nice find Craig. The reverse hardware is also indicative of Deumer production, with that style of pin being found on some of their Kriegsmarine awards as well as their EK1s.

That on is a beauty too Stan.

Tom

Thanks Tom.

I should have bought it whilst the prices were still "low"!

Stan

[Arran]

All fakes as I PROVED that!

Not ALL fakes, but a great many of them are. I suppose you know who is making the really good copies, as they are located in your part of the world?

[Arran]

Thanks Tom.

I should have bought it whilst the prices were still "low"!

Stan

No, Stan, you dodged a bullet!

[Craig Gottlieb]

Gorgeous piece, Stan. Just like we want to see them. I am aware of less than 10 of these, in the "Deumer" configuration (not counting the two that Ron Weinand saw on the sample boards). Time to start placing ads in Florida

[Chris Obermeyer]

Not ALL fakes, but a great many of them are. I suppose you know who is making the really good copies, as they are located in your part of the world?

Hello Arran,
I take it that you heard the same rumors I did.
The official story is that after Rudolf Souval passed away, the family sold all dies or all equipment nescessary to make orders and decorations.
Some people say that the selling of those dies was not true and they continue to make even better fakes, now real forgeries with a new partner somewhere in my part of the world. I do not know if this is true. All I know for sure, and I can prove it, is that all those fakes of the German Order, like those pictured on this thread, were not made with Deumer/Souval dies. I tell you that a set of dies cannot last long, besides, even real crosses made by Souval after the war are a lot more rare than that "version" showing in hundreds.
None of crosses shown here are real. ALL FAKES.
How many crosses by Souval you see here or anywhere else?
Christian Obermeyer

[Arran]

The dies for this are newly made about 7-8 years ago by two very talented fakers in Budapest who also make a great many other Imperial and TR decorations. They copy original high-end pieces provided by some well-known German dealers!

[Chris Obermeyer]

The dies for this are newly made about 7-8 years ago by two very talented fakers in Budapest who also make a great many other Imperial and TR decorations. They copy original high-end pieces provided by some well-known German dealers!

I was afraid of that!
I have been notice an increasing number of high end German Empire Orders and Decorations, in auctions or not, like The Red Eagle Order, The Black Eagle Order, The Bavarian Military Order of Merit and the famous Pour Le Mérite. That´s not normal.
I have also seen more than questionable 1937 German Red Cross Orders and the 1939 German Social Welfare Order.
Yesterday I saw a Reichskultursenate badge and couple of the Fritz Todt Prize, all near perfect forgeries.
Seems to me that faking German Orders are not enough. Fakers are indeed very busy...and rich!
Chris Obermeyer.

[1943collector]

Die life

Hello Arran,
I take it that you heard the same rumors I did.
The official story is that after Rudolf Souval passed away, the family sold all dies or all equipment nescessary to make orders and decorations.
Some people say that the selling of those dies was not true and they continue to make even better fakes, now real forgeries with a new partner somewhere in my part of the world. I do not know if this is true. All I know for sure, and I can prove it, is that all those fakes of the German Order, like those pictured on this thread, were not made with Deumer/Souval dies. I tell you that a set of dies cannot last long, besides, even real crosses made by Souval after the war are a lot more rare than that "version" showing in hundreds.
None of crosses shown here are real. ALL FAKES.
How many crosses by Souval you see here or anywhere else?
Christian Obermeyer

The dies for these and other produced medals if stamped or cast can last thousands of parts sometimes into the 5 figures of parts made. The dies were made of very high grade tool steels and hardened, heat treated from 44 to 50 Rockwell, this hardness and toughtness will be very resistant to wear therefore allowing thousands of parts to be made from the dies. Stamping dies are slightly different from Casting dies and the metals cast or stamped will have a bearing on the die life. Dies made in the 1930s and 1940s could easly still be producing parts if handled properly and taken care of even after all these years.
mike

[stonemint]

Here are some pics of a fake (that was sold as a fake):

[stonemint]

Side view of above fake:

[Arran]

The dies for these and other produced medals if stamped or cast can last thousands of parts sometimes into the 5 figures of parts made. The dies were made of very high grade tool steels and hardened, heat treated from 44 to 50 Rockwell, this hardness and toughtness will be very resistant to wear therefore allowing thousands of parts to be made from the dies. Stamping dies are slightly different from Casting dies and the metals cast or stamped will have a bearing on the die life. Dies made in the 1930s and 1940s could easly still be producing parts if handled properly and taken care of even after all these years.
mike

While all this is true, I know who has been making these latest top copies (not the kind shown above!) and the dies they use are newly made, by them, based on close examination of an original provided by a German dealer.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Mike and Arran,

Although it is true about the important information regarding the hardening of dies provided by Mike, it is also true that this process was made in dies for decorations intended for mass production like the Iron Cross, War Merit Cross and so many others but NOT the German Order. Remember that, most likely, German Orders were all different from themselves as they were produced one by one. All those small differences may have caused a nescessary modification to the dies, or may be, just may be, a new set of dies have been produced.

The fake in question, those accepted as 'originals' started to show in 1967/1968. Even if those dies were made to produce thousends of crosses, it is quite possible that some other dies were made as well, and very recently, as said by Arran. It does make sense and it is quite possible considering the amount of money involved on making these fakes for fraudulent selling afterwards.

The faith on Souval´s dies are a mistery to me. Over all these years of a meticulous investigation I did not find much. I have been patiently waiting for several years to the guy make his move. This Third Class bellow, posted by Stonemint is very close, may have been produced with Souval dies but...too much differences that will not fool anyone.
About a week or so, I saw a First Class on a thread here that was probably made by the same maker to this Third Class bellow. Notice that the enamel is a little high, the oak leaves around the cross is just too thin and high, wrong materials and no rivets construction on the reverse of that Third Class Cross.

Chris.

[Chris Obermeyer]

ANOTHER ONE!

Another one of those fakes, a Third Class Cross, will be sold (?) and guess who...Craig Gottlieb´s auction.
Why I am not surprised?
Chris.

[Chris Obermeyer]

.... AND ANOTHER !!

This time, another Third Class will be sold by Andreas Thies.
Again, I am not surprised.
Like I said, don´t hold the mail.
Chris.