3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[chen]

Did he, really? I, automatically, assume that all items from Andreas Thies are FAKES. He does not have good reputation so your information does not mean much. I have seen over 20 German Orders on his auctions on the past 5 years....I have pictures and his catalogues downloaded.

However, since you stated that "just as it should be", I would very much like to hear your evidence or theory that you are right.

Thank you and good luck.

Can you elaborate the followings:
1. why " all " his items are fake?
2. why he does not have good reputation?

[Chris Obermeyer]

Can you elaborate the followings:
1. why " all " his items are fake?
2. why he does not have good reputation?

Of course I can. Some other day I was watching on you tube Mr. thomas Wittman talking about the infamous Hitler's group now belonging (?) to Craig Gottlieb and he called him n infamous person, check it out yousef, it was a reel from the SOS show in 2914. Second this very same group belonged to Wolf & hardin and it was shown for the very first time at the Max Show in the yeatr of 1994, the group was there. Strange, that nobady talked about the orign of sucu an item that I examined personally with the true expert Bob Alexander and we concluded it was all fake. Markings of aging by chemical products were obvious among many other things. By the way Wolf & Hardin are trying very quietly run off the busuness as they are trying to sell everuthing they own by Hermann historica, but not that quIet for me. And how about that group of a Grosskreuz belonging to reichsmarschall Hermann G6oring with award certificate he sold that for a million Dollars to YOU ! It torns out the cross was a laughale copy and the certificate a bad forgerie as the original is located and locked on the librery of the City os Müncjen, Bauern. Or may be we should talk about that SA Felgherrnhalle dagger a complete fake he was trying to sell as original. Or may be we shoulr talk about the Hitler´s parents pair of paitings that he said were original telling they were authentic because of by "brusch by brush". He said he sold them both but months later they show like magic at Andreas Thues Auktion for sale....magic? May be you want to talk about the infamous SA Feldherrnhalle dagger he tried to sell as original of course....is that enough for you or you want to keep going on? Because I have a lot more to talk about him...like recentluy he bacae a grave robber no more no less. Finally, for now, how about the sacandals on his personal life? The poit is, if a guy like that is working with Andreas Thies, what make of Andreas Thies. may be should be more careful when choosing his boddies.

As for the reputation on Andreas Thies, how about you surch at the forum an find
opinuons of members yourself? As you cam see i still have veru good memory and I can prove everything, my pesonal files are bigger than ever, so, enjoy! Bt the way the latge amount of the most rare ordres in each and every auction isn´t enough to make you
think about? Are you really so naive?

Chris Obermeyer

[Chris Obermeyer]

Admittedly, I have never studied the award in question but reading through this, sometimes painful thread, I stumbled upon your claim in regards to this awards finish and your claim that fire gilding can not be used on silver, only bronze (post 195, page 13).
That claim is of course outlandishly false and examples of fire gilded silver items are abundant if one cares to look. One to prove my point here: http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionaryvermeil.html
Speaking about facts or rather HARD FACTS as you like to refer to those Mr.Obermeyer- please, educate us and tell us exactly why silver can not be gilded for use on decorations.
Looking forward to it.

cheers

Matt

Dear Sir,
Gildesd can be gilded but the reults in color will never get any closer toa decoeations like the German Eagle Order. The difference in collor couldmt be more obvious, studt the pictures. When aging the color of the fake bronze collors are fading fast and on a very usual way. Several aspects of those crosses are wrong having published books available. Take a good look of aging bronze crosses and comopare to Deuner or Souval crosses. Besides Eagle Orders were silver gilt till the end of the war and the snall amount of mada with gilding bronze are unknown, porbably very few., but never German Otders or you can prove wuthout a shadow of a doubt. I say that a single piece made with gilded bronze was never EVER produced in the Third Reich era. Today I evem believw that fakes are ptoducing fakes with this new tecnic.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Gemtlemen,
Please explain for me like I am a six years old. Thre´s about a little bit more tuen 35 Oak Leaves. Swords and Diamonds (RK des EK) around. The last one for sale was the one belomging to Oberst Möldres and the hammer price was over half a million Euros whith the Hermann histoprica comission.
Again I was there. Now how can a decoratino like The GermnOrder, the more significant, beautiful and RARE, since it is the highst award of a State cvan cost only 34,000 Euros? Can you ex
plain to me I an a six years old?

[Alex W.]

Getting back to the initial "German Order" thread - IMO it's possible, that there might have been two variants of two different makers. Maybe one made of bronze and one made of silver by a different maker.
I'm very familiar with the products of the Souval company... They had no reason to make production of the German Order even more complex in the post war years by adding a seperate signature plate.
Maybe Souval even had a permit to produce a period display variant made of silver ?
How much is known, if this is the case or not ? How many collectors for example know, that indeed Souval had the permisson to produce period wearers copies of the National Prize for Art and Science ? .... A much more impressive decoration than any German Order. So I don't see a reason why it shouldn't have been the case for the German Order too...
Maybe this is the story behind the silver pieces or maybe not. Who says that this can be ruled out ?

Best regards,
Alex

[Leroy]

Just to make everyone feel bad (), here's what you could get on souvenir boards right after the war.

[Alex W.]

Very nice souvenir board. I wonder for how much these were "sold" back in the day...

[Chris Obermeyer]

Getting back to the initial "German Order" thread - IMO it's possible, that there might have been two variants of two different makers. Maybe one made of bronze and one made of silver by a different maker.
I'm very familiar with the products of the Souval company... They had no reason to make production of the German Order even more complex in the post war years by adding a seperate signature plate.
Maybe Souval even had a permit to produce a period display variant made of silver ?
How much is known, if this is the case or not ? How many collectors for example know, that indeed Souval had the permisson to produce period wearers copies of the National Prize for Art and Science ? .... A much more impressive decoration than any German Order. So I don't see a reason why it shouldn't have been the case for the German Order too...
Maybe this is the story behind the silver pieces or maybe not. Who says that this can be ruled out ?

Best regards,
Alex

Dear Alex,

No Alex, it is not possible two makers to produce, with Governement contract, the German Order.The German Order was not inteded to be made in high numbers that could justify a second maker, however, it is possinle that more makers made prototypes, like Deumer really did. to show for the Governement to let then decide who was going to be the official maker. Also those few prototypes may have benn made in bronze but, I insist, there´s no prove or even evidence of this to support those theories. May I remind you that this kind of situation is the paradise for fakers, it´s all they want to "create" a variant, for example, and sell for a high price. Amd this has beeing done for decades now, with several decorations.

Since you mentioned the extraordinary in design, the famous National Prize for Art and Science, I must remind you that this decoration was made by one maker only and in two types, both almost identical, but the first type is just a littte heavier. Anyway, I don´t know how Souval was able to do a good quality reproduction of this award.

Again, Souval or any other maker never had authorization to produce the German Order. Those produced by him were made ftom the original dies by Deumer.

Of course you can raise many theories you like but I prefer to stay away from this very danger German mine field, in life and collecting. All authors with published reference books describe the German Order as I explained on this thread, with new information that are reults of decades of ivestigation with incredible efforts. Remember that those informations are not mine, Mr. Aylson Doyle, deserves full cradits on this as I gave him a little help in some occasions.

Mr. Doyle choose to keep absolute silence about the rest of the history of the German Order and it´s secrets. At his own free will, he is going to donate his collection to a German Museum, as his insistence. Untill his German Orders may be seeing displayed you will have to wait.

Regards,
Chris Obermeyer.

[Matthew]

Dear Sir,
Gildesd can be gilded but the reults in color will never get any closer toa decoeations like the German Eagle Order. The difference in collor couldmt be more obvious, studt the pictures. When aging the color of the fake bronze collors are fading fast and on a very usual way. Several aspects of those crosses are wrong having published books available. Take a good look of aging bronze crosses and comopare to Deuner or Souval crosses. Besides Eagle Orders were silver gilt till the end of the war and the snall amount of mada with gilding bronze are unknown, porbably very few., but never German Otders or you can prove wuthout a shadow of a doubt. I say that a single piece made with gilded bronze was never EVER produced in the Third Reich era. Today I evem believw that fakes are ptoducing fakes with this new tecnic.

I am having a hard time decyphering your post above (I'm serious- not making fun of you) but let me respond to what I think you said.
First- the gold gilt (no matter how applied) will never fade, no matter what the base material is. Look at paintings from say 16th century or specifically their gilded frames- do you see any fading there?
Gold used for gilt is usually of highest purity- more often than not- 24kt. That is also the reason why it will not fade (only the additives or impurities can oxidize or fade- like copper).
What can age is the base under the gilt. Silver is notorious for darkening, brass as well although to lesser extent. If the gilt gets worn off, the aging process of the base metal will get accelerated but like I already said- the gilt itself will not fade as you claimed above (or I think you did).

Regardless your claim re: construction of Eagle orders. I would like to hear your opinion on the one below- original or not, what do you think it's made out of- your general analysis if you could. To use your own words- study the picture and give us your opinion.

As for your claim that none of the German Orders were made pre 1945 in anything than silver- well, that is a bold statement to make and not one that you could ever positively prove for obvious reasons.

As for your friend Alyston and your claim that he 'choose to keep absolute silence: the man was thrown out of here- not given a choice about it, same with his silence- revocation of his right to post took care of that. As for his desire of donating his collection to a German Museum to be displayed there- don't hold your breath.
You're right about one thing though- his research and his collection are legendary- no one was ever able to confirm they exist, making both legends...

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

I am having a hard time decyphering your post above (I'm serious- not making fun of you) but let me respond to what I think you said.
First- the gold gilt (no matter how applied) will never fade, no matter what the base material is. Look at paintings from say 16th century or specifically their gilded frames- do you see any fading there?
Gold used for gilt is usually of highest purity- more often than not- 24kt. That is also the reason why it will not fade (only the additives or impurities can oxidize or fade- like copper).
What can age is the base under the gilt. Silver is notorious for darkening, brass as well although to lesser extent. If the gilt gets worn off, the aging process of the base metal will get accelerated but like I already said- the gilt itself will not fade as you claimed above (or I think you did).

Regardless your claim re: construction of Eagle orders. I would like to hear your opinion on the one below- original or not, what do you think it's made out of- your general analysis if you could. To use your own words- study the picture and give us your opinion.

As for your claim that none of the German Orders were made pre 1945 in anything than silver- well, that is a bold statement to make and not one that you could ever positively prove for obvious reasons.

As for your friend Alyston and your claim that he 'choose to keep absolute silence: the man was thrown out of here- not given a choice about it, same with his silence- revocation of his right to post took care of that. As for his desire of donating his collection to a German Museum to be displayed there- don't hold your breath.
You're right about one thing though- his research and his collection are legendary- no one was ever able to confirm they exist, making both legends...

cheers

Matt

Dear Matthew

Indeed I am having problems trying to write, sometimes because I type too fast, sometimes my eye sights are not OK, I need new eyeglasses for sure, however keep in mind that I am a foreigner. May be you are able to read and write in my own language. (German)

By all means gold gilt will fade away one time or another. If you live on a country that the moisture is high the fading wll be even faster. Paintings on museums are constantly cleaned and retaured with new layers of high content gold. Pieces made in wood go first usually. Take Eagle Orders for instance. I saw several made in gold washed silver where the gold is no longer there, only the original silver. Regardless of what you said gold may also darken slightly. Everything will depend on how the gold was applied, what kind of process.

About my statement regarding that originals, accepted or according to regulations, YES, German Orders were made in silver as this has been written in several books unless, of course YOU can prove to the contrary.

As far as I can tell the problem that Mr. Aylson Doyle, my personal friend for decades, had on this forum was originated of discussion with another member named Craig Gottlieb, that was also expelled from this forum. Apparently the charges against Gottlieb made by Mr Doyle were true, that means, necessarily, that you made a wrong judgment about him, Mr. Doyle was right. You made a mistake, plain and simple. By the way I share the indignation of my friend against Gottlieb. However it does not matter anyway he is light years away from here and he couldn´t care less for this forum. We will meet in Buenos Aires. where I still live, on April 17th. What is regarding to his collection I remind you that is HIS business not yours. But why don´t you phone him and pay a visit? He still lives in Rio de Janeiro but he has a house in Berlin where he's always, during the winter.

The picture you posted is an Eagle Order, Third Class for those of the 1937 and 1939 pattern and a 5th Class for the 1943 pattern with or w/o swords. The picture shows the reverse of the cross. For the 1937 series the marking "900" should be on the looop ring, the crosses made in 1939 are marked in the very same way and the crosses of the 1943 are marked "5" to designate class (Stuffe) and "21" on suspension ring, to designate maker. I cannot see the upper part of the ring to check the numbers but I don´t like that golden color, by your picture it does not look like real silver, may be bronze and I do not like the lack of details on the chest of all eagles. I would like to see this "hands on". By your picture it is a reproduction.

By the way, Third Reich militaria is not what I collect. I collect Napoleonic era and Imperial germany.

Chris Obermeyer

[Matthew]

No, unfortunately my German is too weak to converse in, English will have to do as middle ground unless of course you can read and write in my native tongue- Polish?
Yes, paintings are constantly being cleaned and restored but aside from not fading, pure gold also does not evaporate with age therefore there would be no need to reapply fresh layers to replace old ones. Unless of course in the case of mechanical damage or damage to the base (whether wood, metal or other).

Yes, the German Order has been made in silver or so it is written in several books- no disputing that. Seen it with my own eyes. So what? Have you ever seen the book that claim the earth is flat? Some do. Does that make it so?
What's your point?

Have you seen wartime Deumer catalog? What about Zimmermann's?
Those are period sources very pertinent to this discussion. You claim the crosses on emedals are recent 'inventions'- please elaborate on that- what makes them recent inventions exactly?

If you think the cross is a reproduction based on the pic and the eagle's chest detail- I have no more questions. Instead of googling images, you should concentrate on the piece in question. 'Study the picture' as you said yourself. Good thing you don't collect 3rd Reich.
And please, don't tell me it's because the picture was weak- you passed judgement on pieces and much weaker pictures.

cheers

Matt

[chen]

I am having a hard time decyphering your post above (I'm serious- not making fun of you) but let me respond to what I think you said.
First- the gold gilt (no matter how applied) will never fade, no matter what the base material is. Look at paintings from say 16th century or specifically their gilded frames- do you see any fading there?
Gold used for gilt is usually of highest purity- more often than not- 24kt. That is also the reason why it will not fade (only the additives or impurities can oxidize or fade- like copper).
What can age is the base under the gilt. Silver is notorious for darkening, brass as well although to lesser extent. If the gilt gets worn off, the aging process of the base metal will get accelerated but like I already said- the gilt itself will not fade as you claimed above (or I think you did).

Regardless your claim re: construction of Eagle orders. I would like to hear your opinion on the one below- original or not, what do you think it's made out of- your general analysis if you could. To use your own words- study the picture and give us your opinion.

As for your claim that none of the German Orders were made pre 1945 in anything than silver- well, that is a bold statement to make and not one that you could ever positively prove for obvious reasons.

As for your friend Alyston and your claim that he 'choose to keep absolute silence: the man was thrown out of here- not given a choice about it, same with his silence- revocation of his right to post took care of that. As for his desire of donating his collection to a German Museum to be displayed there- don't hold your breath.
You're right about one thing though- his research and his collection are legendary- no one was ever able to confirm they exist, making both legends...

cheers

Matt

[chen]

No, unfortunately my German is too weak to converse in, English will have to do as middle ground unless of course you can read and write in my native tongue- Polish?
Yes, paintings are constantly being cleaned and restored but aside from not fading, pure gold also does not evaporate with age therefore there would be no need to reapply fresh layers to replace old ones. Unless of course in the case of mechanical damage or damage to the base (whether wood, metal or other).

Yes, the German Order has been made in silver or so it is written in several books- no disputing that. Seen it with my own eyes. So what? Have you ever seen the book that claim the earth is flat? Some do. Does that make it so?
What's your point?

Have you seen wartime Deumer catalog? What about Zimmermann's?
Those are period sources very pertinent to this discussion. You claim the crosses on emedals are recent 'inventions'- please elaborate on that- what makes them recent inventions exactly?

If you think the cross is a reproduction based on the pic and the eagle's chest detail- I have no more questions. Instead of googling images, you should concentrate on the piece in question. 'Study the picture' as you said yourself. Good thing you don't collect 3rd Reich.
And please, don't tell me it's because the picture was weak- you passed judgement on pieces and much weaker pictures.

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

No, unfortunately my German is too weak to converse in, English will have to do as middle ground unless of course you can read and write in my native tongue- Polish?
Yes, paintings are constantly being cleaned and restored but aside from not fading, pure gold also does not evaporate with age therefore there would be no need to reapply fresh layers to replace old ones. Unless of course in the case of mechanical damage or damage to the base (whether wood, metal or other).

Yes, the German Order has been made in silver or so it is written in several books- no disputing that. Seen it with my own eyes. So what? Have you ever seen the book that claim the earth is flat? Some do. Does that make it so?
What's your point?

Have you seen wartime Deumer catalog? What about Zimmermann's?
Those are period sources very pertinent to this discussion. You claim the crosses on emedals are recent 'inventions'- please elaborate on that- what makes them recent inventions exactly?

If you think the cross is a reproduction based on the pic and the eagle's chest detail- I have no more questions. Instead of googling images, you should concentrate on the piece in question. 'Study the picture' as you said yourself. Good thing you don't collect 3rd Reich.
And please, don't tell me it's because the picture was weak- you passed judgement on pieces and much weaker pictures.

cheers

Matt

My opinion stands. This is may be original to the 4th Reich. Please post pictures with the markings on the right place as I described. Why you posted a picture cutting the upper part of the ring?

[Matthew]

My opinion stands. This is may be original to the 4th Reich. Please post pictures with the markings on the right place as I described. Why you posted a picture cutting the upper part of the ring?

To see if you know what you're talking about, thought that would be obvious.
The piece is unmarked so posting pics of markings is not really possible.
Maybe 5th Reich then?

I asked a couple of questions as well but noticed you did not answer those?

cheers

Matt