New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[Norm F]

Look at the pin itself - thin metal wire vs the german style. Look at catch attachment, again completely different scalloped 'C' shape vs the the German L shape. Also the pin mount of the French style, again a completely different design...

Of course, the wide main pins on the KM badges differ from the round-wire pins on the regimental badges, but they both use folded sheet metal hinges with the folded area acting as the pressure foot -- very different from any German style. And we sometimes see exactly the same type of flat wire used to make the catches on both.

I'm not expecting a French imitation of the German style to be an exact match to a French award but rather a hybrid of stylistic elements between French and German products which is exactly what we're seeing. This is analogous to the well-known Japanese made EK1s and Auxiliary Cruiser badges (although those have clear provenance) -- neither purely German nor purely Japanese in style but a strange hybrid.

To me, the question is not whether the KM badges were French-made, but rather whether they were made around the same time period as the regimental pins they resemble in construction methods. As I've said before, I don't know enough about the French regimental pins used in these comparators to say when they were made and by whom, but in my mind they are likely linked to the French-made KM badges in that respect.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The same can be said for the KM summer uniform metal breast eagles which have sometimes shown up in collections from France bring-backs. Based upon the type of gilding, their relative roughness and unique hardware, they seem contemporaneous with the French-made KM badges -- whenever that was. Again "German-like" but with a twist.

Best regards,
---Norm

[GAMS1]

A very simple question ...
Have you been "active" on the market in the 70's ? i don't think so ?
I was there already ...
I'm trusted what i saw at that time , what you didn't see at all i'm sure ....
Your famous Johnson having a shop in Paris ? never heard of that huy and i'm pretty sure you didn't even see him , only "stories" heard again ?
Apart stories you heard , how could you call " Proofs" what you says ?
I'm having enough contacts and history in the Hobby , thank you and not only in Paris ...or Internet only ?
What are the other names of the " famous" french crooks having sold these badges ?
Because there's so many "educated" french collectors or dealers which are crooks , having sold these badges for decades ...
Nick

Hi,
It seemed that you should pick up your contacts better...
If in 2018 you didn't heard anything on other dealers (Caravano and co are burned to death), there is a small problem...
But i understand that if you "trusted" all the gibberish stories that were told to you, now you may understand that you were betrayed by all those crooks.

So now people are saying that "pins are German made".... What a bullsh*t !
So you will have French companies, during WW2, when metal use is limited, that are ordering pins from Germany for unofficial and not even ordered badges ?

This is a joke that is insulting History.

The proofs are HERE : casted, surfaced in the 70's, the golden age of fakes (especially in France), and made by Johnson, the famous crook.
So many Parisian dealers were crooks at the time, i was given a few other names in Rungis a few days ago.

I'm still waiting testimonies of all the workers and officials at the Ministère de la Marine...

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

1)
Have you been "active" on the market in the 70's ? i don't think so ?
I was there already ...
I'm trusted what i saw at that time , what you didn't see at all i'm sure ....

Pure argument of authory.
You were fooled in the 70's, as anyone can be fooled today if people can provide infos in 10, 20, 100 years that prove we were wrong.
Science and history evolved over the years, like the infos on fakes...

2)
Your famous Johnson having a shop in Paris ? never heard of that huy and i'm pretty sure you didn't even see him , only "stories" heard again ?

René Johnson was the owner of the famous "Au Bon Chic de Paris" (pictures below). Check online for more infos.
He was already active in 1949.
Some stocks from his store/collection were sold in the 2000's, i have friends that bought some items from the auction, i can provide if needed more additional infos about that.
All the dealers and collectors that were active in the 70's and 80's' that i meet heard of him as a seller and gave me various testimonies. He sold many different types of items, from Napoleonic to 3rd Reich items.
I have many of testimonies just for the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire he had made (the "Delande/Johnson" model), sold and probably retailed in France. Everyone that worked on the medal knew Johnson...

I also have testimonies on other scams that did René Johnson (that i didn't ask for).
Anyone can go to a gunshow and ask any old collector (not only from Paris) if he knew René Johnson.
So you were a collector, and never heard of him or his scams ?
I heard of him starting from 2014 when i started to work on the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire.

Also it imply that you never rode the article of Mr. Malvaux on the "story" of the fake badges published in Militaria Magazine 76 of November 1991 ?
Rene Johnson is clearly listed in it as the dealer that got the badges (and who spread them later ?) from Jean-Claude Kerviche, page 15 of the article !


3)
I'm having enough contacts and history in the Hobby , thank you and not only in Paris ...or Internet only ?

Argument of authority again as 1).

4)
What are the other names of the " famous" french crooks having sold these badges ?

The badge was more probably retailed by many dealers in France, like for many other fakes (currently retailed). Dealers are providing fakes to local dealers, like music retailers do with live bootleg/counterfeit CDs/LPs. Same as for drug business.

I suspect that local dealers told "fantasy stories" (as it was proven in this topic) to sell those fakes, telling that those badges were found in French arsenals (all starting from the 70's, how strange is that ? Every arsenal/shipping yard had their own hidden lot that were found at the same time).
Too bad that no period info, no period picture, no period lot exist, and no serious KM historian believe in them isn't it ?
And too bad that the construction of the badge is a proof that it was not period (Jo videos).
The lot "surfaced" from nowhere in Paris in the 70's... Like many other stories of fakes that surfaced from nowhere around the world.
Remember the Kai Winkler SS tuxedo lot that was sold to innocent US buyers a few years ago ?

5)
Because there's so many "educated" french collectors or dealers which are crooks , having sold these badges for decades ...

This is the most important comment you made, which explain why NO ONE will admit the scam openly... MONEY.
Dozen of thousand of francs/euros were made with those fakes over the decades.
Check the dozen videos of Jo, you will find the same with so many other fakes, some of which are far more expensive than those ugly KM badges.

Just think of that : you are a dealer, you are a specialist (or not) of KM items, and you made a lot of money selling what are infact fake badges...
Will you admit and refund the dozen/hundred of customers you had for decades ?
Will you risk your business, knowing that people will now say "the guy sold fakes. If he sold fake KM badges, he can sell more other fakes" ?

Will you admit that, afterall, you were not a "specialist", as you sold fakes ?
Your credibility would be damaged if you decided to admit that you sold fakes, knowing (or not) that the items were fakes...

Check the community forum here :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=927320
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=976094

All those dealers/"specialists" that burned collectors for decades...
Oviously they don't care of their credibility, which is unfortunate.
Like for Peter Popoff, people don't stop been fooled again and again...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff

Most dealers do not risk a lot unfortunately. To sell fake items = fraud.
All is a problem is honesty...
If you sell a fake that you know/think is a fake, your are not honest, and you are making a fraud.

Unfortunately it is very hard to prove a scam with fake items, just check the various stories in the art market with fakes or scams.
Will international police services investigate for fake KM badges sold since the 70's to hundred if not thousand by hundred of dealers/sellers and for a few dozen/hundred of francs/euros for each badge ?
Even more for nazi/scandalous militaria items ?

During the last Rungis gunshow a few days ago, a friend of a friend was sold a fake EK I for 450 euros by a known dealer.
A short search on the WAF and the net easily proved that the item was a known reproduction available for 30 to 40 euros :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1000424

Oh and by the way, do you know the percentage of fake items in gunshows ?
Just check the SS items, just for fun... What is the percentage ?
50 % of fakes ? 70 % ? 90 % ?
And how many are sold as "legit" and "original" ?
To see a 30 euros repro EK I sold 450 euros or to see a 15 euros repro Germanische Leistungsrune proposed for +2000 euros, how do you call that ?
I call that a scam/fraud.

The other problem is that like all the frauds, people that were fooled don't want to talk that they were "stupid", they were "fooled" and they "lost hundred/thousand euros".
In every scam that exists, you will only find a limited number of victims, many will not talk.
And most victims are usually not "specialists", are not doing their homework, or are "believing in sellers".
Like the friend of a friend that bought a fake EK I for 450 euros... The seller assured him it was original.
And people that know their things are most of the time not victims.
Some laugh at victims, others don't care. And some - like me or Jo - are ready to be attacked by "believers/sellers/specialists" to debunk those fakes.
This is like people trying to protect and inform people of fraud made by sects or pseudo-sciences, or fake games, books, computers, phones, food, drugs etc...

Why will you stop selling a fake item that is easily available at reduced price (at the time) that can be easily sold for 2, 3, 5, 10 times the price you paid for ?

To conclude, you can be :
- a dealer selling fake items (knowing that the items are fake)
- a dealer selling fake items (not knowing that the items are fake)

- someone that know how to identify fakes and who keep his mouth shut
- someone that know how to identify fakes and who will try to protect other collectors and inform them

- a victim that will never know that he was fooled
- a victim that will still believe in the originality of the item he bought and still promote it (to avoid to lose the "value" of the item)
- a victim that will make his coming out and speak about the fact that he was scammed (it is hard to do that as it is sometimes hard to live the fact that you were fooled for years, and for hundred/thousand of euros)

Readers of the topic have enough infos to see in which category they currently are.

Knowledge, logic and skepticism are the keys.

--------------------------------------

Again, you have no proof to support your claim that the badges were made before 1945. Your only proof is your "belief".

I provided proofs and infos, and Jo debunked the badge in a study that is 100% factual (casted badge and pin which appeared in the hands of a crook René Johnson in the 70's with a fantasy story...).
What more do you need ?
A testimony of René Johnson or all the other dealers, a testimony, a video, the molds of the crook that made the badge ?

This is like for the crop circles, even if you provide every available proof, you will still find "believers" that will believe in them.

So instead of using the argument of authority again and again ("i know a lot of specialists, you were not there in the 70's, everyone i know is saying the badges are original"), please provide factual infos that the badges are indeed period and therefore please debunk Jo's videos.
Please explain the casting of the badge and pin, which not a single serious collector knowing how badges were made (not only before 1945, but in general) will believe and defend.

See You

Vince

[P.A.K.75]

Here goes

Be gentle on the newby but I believe these badges are real for the following . I remember the good old days of 1972 when aged 11 the average price for a German badge/medal was approximately £10 no matter what it was ! originals were so cheap that the only fakes were made of a largely lead mix alloy , felt like kids silly putty in your hand and you could bend them with the tiniest amount of pressure but Baquevilles were around then , how do I know ? well I didn't then but learnt later that the stunningly , crisp sharply defined high seas fleet badge my savings from my Saturday job wages had bought me was one .

So my question is why would the cast and pour fakers go to so much trouble back then to create such a costly high quality fake ?

I'm willing to keep a mind open to any new evidence to the contrary should it ever be produced but until then I'll keep mine .

Lastly , and with the greatest respect to whomever it was but the argument that the French would of never of carried out military work for the Germans is deeply
flawed . Life goes on , even under occupation people , especially during war time still need to turn a buck and did , even my countrymen in the channel islands including at least one printer who was paid under the Germans 3 times the amount he had previously earned .

Food for thought . 2 weeks after the Normandy landings Eisenhower closed down the french press because of adverse comments on the behaviour of allied troops even going as far as to say that the Germans behaved better . The 82nd airborn were committing so many rapes that they were threatened with having a paratrooper hung from every lamp post unless they stopped .34000 frenchmen died fighting for the S.S.and a 100,000 more were wearing German uniforms . At the outbreak of the invasion of Russia Hitler was approached by the French government with the offer to fight by their side against communism .

The point is that whilst this doesn't prove that the whole of France was in collaboration with Germany , far from it . But it proves that they like every other country then and today are not inhabited with a population that has a single collective opinion . As the brilliant torpedo los states on the subject Baqueville is tight lipped on the subject . Why not a flat out denial ? I suspect a fear of being later found out even drawing further investigation down regarding the subject if they did send out a hard denial . Better to let sleeping dogs lie .

No , to my mind they can't be expected to start talking about such a contentcious
issue in the same way that Jaeger clothing would about making uniforms for the Hitler youth or Nivea making moisturiser and barrier creams for German Army issue . Mind you with the vogue for companies to insert their long product history into their marketing thats one t.v. advert I'd like to see , wouldn't you ?

[upbeek]

It’s a good point to question why make them as they are to fool collectors when they could have been less convincing ,
Well they are cast which is proven and I believe they are indeed French made by the manufacturer Norm shows, but I still think they are post war souvenirs
There was a big market for war trophies just like nowadays that’s why companies like s and l produced them as well

Kind regards Chay

[P.A.K.75]

Yes , Rudolf Souval continued to make badges using the same wartime dies and metals to feed the demand for souvenirs by the American occupation force .
Re strikes rather than copies , but I'm still not a 100% either way about the Backies .

Topedo Los has this to say on the subject . These badges are die struck in zinc , well made and finished . and goes on to say , the general feeling in the collector community now leans towards them being original to the period and not postwar manufacture . Of course this in itself could be debatable so you pays your money and makes your choice .

But personally the strongest element for the yes vote is the quality set against the price during the period I bought mine . To me it doesn't stack up when prices were so incredibly low and fakes so incredibly bad for some to produce such a high quality and far more costly item to make as well as going to the trouble of al;so making the box , only to then knock them out for a tenner . Mine was unboxed and I got it for £9.00 because I bought a lot of stuff off the bloke .

As I said , I'm not completely a 100% either way to date . I respect your opinion conflict is a negative emotion whilst debate is positive . Debate is a form of evolution that eventually leads to the truth .

P.S. I still can't upload those bloody mine sweeper badges ! I'm going to try and resize them and I'd like to know what you think .

Best regards , Rob

[Norm F]

Yes , Rudolf Souval continued to make badges using the same wartime dies and metals to feed the demand for souvenirs by the American occupation force .
Re strikes rather than copies , but I'm still not a 100% either way about the Backies .

Topedo Los has this to say on the subject . These badges are die struck in zinc , well made and finished . and goes on to say , the general feeling in the collector community now leans towards them being original to the period and not postwar manufacture . Of course this in itself could be debatable so you pays your money and makes your choice .

Hi Rob,

Some of this is off topic but to be clear, Souval had vast quantities of leftover wartime stock which was often refinished post-war, but most of his post-war activity was in fact cast reproduction not struck, often cast from his own wartime or S&L badges.

And despite Gordon's description of the French-made badges as "die struck" in Torpedo Los (which was a good book for its time), if you read this thread (and other pinned thread) in detail you will see that was subsequently disproven with reproducible microscopic examination.

Take some time to peruse and digest the past discussion. (It's a lot of pages!)

Best regards,
---Norm

[upbeek]

Rob,
I collect probably the most complicated military badges and they are British cap badges , they are being faked on a massive scale even as I write this, new dies old dies they can have lugs soldered on or a slider , some other are die struck and sometimes die cast they are on sale from a few pounds upwards so bear this in mind when thinking of cost.

Kind regards Chay

[P.A.K.75]

Norfolks

That's handy . I picked up a Norfolk 2nd battalion volunteers cap badge a few weeks ago . Have a soft spot for the holly boys now I'm living in Norfolk . Another one for you to look at once I've sorted my upload problem ,

Kind regards , Rob