Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[5tefan]

On the EK1 Sector it's already known that S&L made Postwar EK1!
But in this case it is very easy to spot the difference BTW a very interesting Thread !!!

[Legion Condor]

Brian S,

No!!!

The Bronze, they do not understand!
Your CEJ bronzes cast copy, where they said it is original. They could not see well. They always talk a lot.

Let you have your opinions and I mean.

You can not Objectively diskutiren, and they try to make me only bad forever. That they do best.



Greeting Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Hi Brian s,

the left needle to show them as such, as evidence for the authenticity of her play is a L/18 and L/16 not as they think.
Thus they believe the link here. If you scroll to see a magnified version of the Stamp.

http://www.ek1-dna.de/l-18-bernard-h...---pinback.php

The Needle system at their Spanish Cross is a typical Otto Schickles EK 1 model and not what they show as an example.

http://www.ek1-dna.de/-l-15--otto-sc...---pinback.php

Only once for info. But it was knowing that determines just have it not written.
I'm just saying LDO.

But why this is so, they will know.

Your piece is built on S & L tools. It could be good.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Brian S]

Hi Brian s,

the left needle to show them as such, as evidence for the authenticity of her play is a L/18 and L/16 not as they think.
Thus they believe the link here. If you scroll to see a magnified version of the Stamp.

http://www.ek1-dna.de/l-18-bernard-h...---pinback.php

The Needle system at their Spanish Cross is a typical Otto Schickles EK 1 model and not what they show as an example.

http://www.ek1-dna.de/-l-15--otto-sc...---pinback.php

Only once for info. But it was knowing that determines just have it not written.
I'm just saying LDO.

But why this is so, they will know.

Your piece is built on S & L tools. It could be good.

Greeting Hans Günter

Thank you. And I know everyone is thankful you discovered the fake Bronze CEJ. I sent mine back a while ago because it was ugly. Never even thought it could be cast, just looked bad.

[Brian S]

On the EK1 Sector it's already known that S&L made Postwar EK1!
But in this case it is very easy to spot the difference BTW a very interesting Thread !!!

Good reference Stefan!!!

[Legion Condor]

Brian s,

everything is good, just let's not fight. And not always be so personal. We have the same collecting area, and should be pleased that we can replace us here.

I only write what I can prove, and many times just my opinion.

Otherwise I'm rather quiet.


Greeting Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Good reference Stefan!!!

Yes, Stefan has really done a lot.
I got a lot of information from him. Particularities about needle system.
You can see a lot of variations on his side and Lehrner much.

Greeting Hans Günter

[speedytop]

Hi,

I want to follow the line with Leroy and his assumptions.

Based on Leroy's changing descriptions I think, that it is more expedient to ask for pieces with NS emblems, and not only asking for "military pieces".
Then we can/must include sports badges.

Uwe

[speedytop]

Hi Leroy,

"... in the 1957 sub-forum, where nice people are attacked by you for speaking too loosely of "57 pieces ...""

A really wonderful description!

Wirh "speaking to loosely of "57 pieces" is meant, that some ot the "nice people" are not willing (not able?) to differentiate between German Imperial/Weimarer time originals, Third Reich originals, 57er "originals" and not-originals (copies/forgeries/fakes).

And to increase/enhance not-originals to 57er or "57er" is not the correct way for collectors, it could only be gainful for dealers/seller.
It is also irritating for a newbie, and it can be very expensive for newcomers.

And by the way, terms like "arschloch ideas" and "bull**** comments" (and others), used against me by some of your "nice people", used without any sanction agaist the writers, are speaking for themselfes. Those terms are no "personal insults" in the 1957 sub-forum!

Uwe

[speedytop]

And now: http://www.light2art.de/MP3/Orchester-Finale-2.mp3

The complete two large pages:



The preamble:



Following is description 1:



Following is description 2:



Following is description 3:



Following is description 4:



Following are No. 5 and 6:



And finally Galland:


Uwe

[Leroy]

Thank you very much for going to the trouble of copying this and showing it here. There are portions I have not seen before and I will do my best to try to understand it all.

Uwe, I did not like it when people treated you badly by using coarse and offensive names. I tried, 5 months ago, to "smooth" the waters a little bit by "seeing both sides", hoping all would understand a little better.

I will defend Uwe a little bit.

The Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords were never banned from production because they did not have a swastika. They are technically not "1957 re-issue" because were not "re-issued" (or even "re-authorized"- which is really the better term) because they were never forbidden in the first place. Uwe is absolutely correct about this. Pieces produced after May, 1945, by companies which produced during the war, are "copies" (I would not refer to them as "fakes") because they were not made during the period of the "issuing government".

All 1957 collectors, however, already know this. They also realize that the vast bulk of Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords from S&L (and others) which were produced postwar were produced in 1957 and later. No one, as far as I know, is trying to say that these later Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords (with discernible flaws or other characteristics which differentiate them from wartime pieces) are, in fact, "original" wartime pieces.

Uwe is upset by what he regards as "loose language". In reality, these discussions, and the use of that "loose" terminology, is taking place within the
"1957" forum, not within forums dedicated to wartime pieces, so I believe everyone already understands the parameters of the conversations.

[Leroy]

I would ask my friends who are hopefully more proficient in translating German than me to read the following sections (which I thank Uwe for sincerely), and correct, if I am wrong, my initial impression that: 1.) although the Allied law prohibiting manufacturing and "promotion" ( perhaps wrong word by me) of German war medals was still in effect at the time this article was published (May, 1953) and the law was a "much discussed problem"; 2.) some manufacturers (plural) in the Ruhr area have now resumed production of German "orders"; 3.) that, to "insiders"("entitled"?) these pieces have recently (my emphasis) become commercially available (obtainable) again; 4.) that the tobacco shop (of Herr Knoth) is one of the most well known outlets; 5.) that Herr Knoth has dozens of cigar boxes (of the brand "German Unity") with everything from the simplest medal to the Oakleaves with Swords; 6.) that the first badges approved by the Allies to be produced were private ("shooting"?) club badges, and ; 7.) Herr Knoth is showing his customer the "1953 Supplement" to the catalog of a Ludenscheid company filled with gleaming crosses, stars, medals (silver-plated if desired), with or without enamel, etc., etc., and that Herr Knoth is usually asked to file off the ring for the ribbon and replace it with a screw on the back so it can be worn on the chest.....

To me, this article is saying that production of German war medals (as of May, 1953) has resumed, with pieces only recently being again available for purchase by entitled individuals.

I think this is what I have been saying for some time. If there is something here which actually says (or implies) that production of German war medals resumed in the period May 1945 to 1950, please tell me where.

[Brian S]

Yes, but as Stefan points out, the EKI for example easy to distinguish. So too I think the SK and low quality RK's...

[Norm F]

I would ask my friends who are hopefully more proficient in translating German than me to read the following sections

Hi Gentry,

I'm no more proficient than you but I'll have a stab at it:

"Im Zeichen des EVG-Vertrages ist auch die Ordensfrage in Deutschland ein vieldiskutiertes Problem geworden. Nach einem Gesetz der Alliierten sind Herstellung und Tragen der deutschen Kriegsauszeichnungen immer noch untersagt. Aber einige Fabrikanten haben die Herstellung der Orden wieder aufgenommen. Im Ruhrgebiet sind sie für Eingeweihte seit kurzem wieder im Handel erhältlich, ein Tabakgeschäft in der Rüttenscheiderstraße in Essen ist eine der bekanntesten Verkaufsstellen. Herr Knoth, der Besitzer des Ladens, verwahrt Dutzende von Zigarrenkisten Marke "Deutsche Einheit", die mit Orden der deutschen Wehrmacht, von der einfachsten Gedächtnismedaille bis zum Eichenlaub mit Schwertern, gefüllt sind."

"In light of the EDC Treaty (European Defense Community Treaty), the Medal question in Germany has also become a much discussed problem. According to a law of the Allies, manufacturing and wearing German war medals are still prohibited. But some manufacturers have started producing Orders again. In the Ruhr area, to those in the know, as of late they are again commercially available; a tobacco shop in the Rüttenscheiderstraße in Essen is one of the best known sales outlets. Mr. Knoth, the proprietor of the store, stores dozens of cigar boxes of the brand "German Unity" (Deutsche Einheit) that are filled with medals of the German Wehrmacht, from the simplest Commemorative Medal to the Oak Leaves with Swords."

The closeups are interesting. I think I see some U-Boat badges in there, an army Flak badge and also some Spanish Crosses of course. And some of the EK2s and KVK1s are in LDO boxes which I presume are leftovers?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Thank you very much, Norm. Your translation is more "fluid" than mine could ever be. "As of late" (translated by me as "recently") tells me that the "availability" of pieces (which implies to me, hand-in-hand, the production to create such availability in the first place) was not something that pre-dated the article by a long time at all.

Elsewhere in the Revue article (I haven't been through every word yet and this next part comes from Dietrich in his RK book) it is said that Herr Knoth had also been active in the sale of medals during the war years. This might explain at least some part of the stock contained in those cigar boxes and also spread on the table, especially those pieces in LDO boxes.