Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Bob Hritz]

Hans,

The work is not in vain. I went though my Spanish Crosses and found the original type marked 4 on the pin and L/16 on the cross. It corresponds to the information you posted as a period made cross. I had seen the other types and never knew if they were wartime replacements of post-war copies. I thank you for the good information on the St&L crosses.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Oh, I just love being attacked from all sides.

Tell you what, Uwe, why don't you post here, for everyone to see, the ENTIRE Revue article and we will dissect it in every particular. Perhaps I did misread it, and, if so, I'm more than happy to correct, but I must say that I have mentioned this particular "time statement" before (perhaps incorrectly) but neither you nor Dietrich nor the late Dave Kane (who loved to promote this article) ever bothered to correct it as a misstatement.

I enjoyed your statement : "Wishful thinking does not help us; we need facts", when I am just repeating what one of your fellow countrymen has said was "always" known in Germany. (Of course, that is revised now to be totally without any proof.)

Of course, I have no personal knowledge whatsoever of this owner's alleged activity, beyond what Hans Günter has told us. I do know, however, two things , apart from that alleged activity, which I consider important:

1.) Despite repeated attempts, no one has EVER been able to prove new die striking by S&L itself in the immediate postwar years. Instead, we have seen pieces in those times either "ready to go", matching all wartime characteristics, or assembled from leftover parts, with poor finishing and poor assembly techniques (poor rivets, etc.);and
2.) Herr Assmann, the last surviving wartime member of the Ludenscheid-based Assmann company's management, when told by Andreas Klein that it was suggested in the collector community that S&L (just a few hundred yards away) had engaged in new die-striking and production in the immediate postwar years, was very surprised and thought the idea ridiculous. He commented to Andreas that "Herr Luck was sometimes difficult to deal with, but he was not stupid". To me, that is striking testimony from an eyewitness to what happened in those times. (Many Assmann dies were destroyed at gunpoint by British troops, according to Herr Assmann.) Again, of course, just a "story" from another German.

To me, it doesn't make much personal difference if the story is all wrong, partially wrong or all true. What matters is that, as Hans Günter has shown, it is possible to demonstrate the differences between wartime and postwar if you pay attention.(Personally, I give credence to the idea that the owner probably carried away the dies and hid them to avoid a scenario similar to Assmann's, that he perhaps lent them out for some production by others, but that S&L by the early 1950's was increasingly "back in the game" as the occupation wound down and the West figured it might be a good thing to have a friend against the Russians.)

Hans Günter's work is NOT in vain. It is important and useful to all collectors and I look forward to his book, his future postings here, and any article he may (hopefully) write for Dietrich's magazine. S&L is a magnet for boogeyman lovers and that is reflected here.

[Dietrich Maerz]

... but I must say that I have mentioned this particular "time statement" before (perhaps incorrectly) but neither you nor Dietrich nor the late Dave Kane (who loved to promote this article) ever bothered to correct it as a misstatement.

It might very well be that neither me or anybody else was against the "four weeks stement" before. The reason might very well be that this time there was a connection made to Souval being the supplier and that this might be the reason for the four weeks delivery time. That was a complete new angle.

The really interesting part of the REVUE article in connection with this thread is the price list with the Spanish Crosses. All available, the silver and gold version as "unecht", meaning not made of real silver. I find it hard to believe that they (S&L) had all these types as left over stock on hand. The more so when the awarding was closed in 1940 and the internal documents of the PKZ show no awarding in any month of 1940 and even into 1941. Past 1943 there was no need for the PKZ to order any Spanish Crosses - just tell any possible requester to go to a shop and buy a replacement piece with an LDO-number.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Dietrich - Have you ever seen a confirmed example of anything actually and proveably sold from this list (so you could have examined it in hand)? This is supposedly an S&L list, but there is no source identifier written on it and all the exact same categories of products were available from Souval in 1953. Plus the fact the article is published in something equivalent to the National Enquirer, with no comment obtained from S&L? And Herr Knoth has a little room in the back of a tobacco shop. Credibility? Close to zero. (At least that's what you would say if someone else tried to post it as a reputable source and you disagreed with its contents.)

The odds are that, if the list really was from S&L (and maybe it was), the crosses would probably have looked like the one posted in Post #14 by Hansgünter, credibly said, apparently, to be from 1955. Do you think that cross would be (even with NO connection whatsoever to S&L) accepted as a real wartime piece in today's environment? Back then, it was enough that it "looked like" something. The MUCH more dangerous piece is the Juncker fake exposed by Hansgünter in another thread.

There's nothing to lose sleep over here.

P.S. "The reason might very well be that this time there was a connection made to Souval being the supplier and that this might be the reason for the four weeks delivery time. That was a complete new angle." Actually, no. The same suggestion was made then, too.

[Dietrich Maerz]

....(At least that's what you would say if someone else tried to post it as a reputable source and you disagreed with its contents.)

Only if I wanted to sound ridiculously laughable!

The facts are this: it is an article in a at that time very popular magazine (just like Quick, Stern, ...), the article shows orders and medals of the Third Reich, mentions the customers who wanted "the real thing," and it also mentions the company of Steinhauer & Lück by name. Additionally it mentions that people are buying the hard earned Knights Cross again and that Knoth only sells the medals against presentation of the award documents.
It would be very foolish to assume that this was all made up in 1953 to throw off collectors in 2014. The more so when this article confirms everything we know about Knights Cross winners buying replacement RKs after the war and that very, very often (or nearly all the time) these replacements are S&l B-Types. I think the same applies to other orders and medals the awardee lost or was deprived on during the war or in captivity. All fits very well together and it would be far fetched to assume that Mr. Knoth did not get his medals from S&L which was just 48 miles away.
Even the choice of the RKs fits the post-war production types of S&L: the "935" silver B-Type for 32 DM or the Neusilber frame one for 19 DM.
And the same happened with the Spanish Crosses. And for me that is really nothing to lose sleep over because for me it is perfectly proven.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

I am delighted to see that, after your weekend in Wilmington, your sense of humor has returned.

For my own education, could you please tell me where, in the Revue article, there is a specific reference to a 935 cross? I have never seen that in any of the portions of the article shown here before. I see listings for "echt" for 32DM and "unecht" for 19DM (both types, by the way, offered by Souval, too), but no specific 935 mention. I'd love to see it and it would go a long way with me.

[speedytop]

Hi Leroy,

"... no one has EVER been able to prove new die striking by S&L itself in the immediate postwar years."

Can you please specify your "immediate postwar years" as a time period, up to 19..?

Uwe

[Leroy]

Hi Leroy,

"... no one has EVER been able to prove new die striking by S&L itself in the immediate postwar years."

Can you please specify your "immediate postwar years" as a time period, up to 19..?

Uwe

Do you have something other than a sports badge modified from a TR badge with the permission of the British Commissioner?

[Leroy]

I guess I asked two too many questions.

gentlemen.

[Dietrich Maerz]

In celebration of this thread (an RIP Eli Wallach) I was watching "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" .....

You are right, no mention of "935", so it could be also one of the "800" post-war B-Types by S&L. Why S&L and not Souval? Well, because the article mentions that Mr. Knoth got his medals from S&L (that is in the part of the article you did not post) and that is what they made post-war.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

I am glad to see you acknowledge that there was NO mention of a 935 cross (a cross associated only with S&L), as you claimed, in the Revue article. Rather than apologize for this bit of dangerous and misleading exaggeration on your part, however, you blithely, and totally incorrectly, go on to cast aspersions on me (!) for not posting a part of the article where Herr Knoth said he got his medals from S&L, as though I was trying to hide something, even though I had already clearly said here [in Post #45] that he mentioned in the article that S&L was his "principal supplier". Apparently, you are either not reading very closely or don't care what you say.

I despair saying this, but this is a trend.

On May 3 of this year, in another thread, you translated part of a letter from Paul Preuss, a director at S&L, as saying that S&L only received an order for the German Cross in Gold from the PKZ. You actually made fun of collectors who believed in an S&L German Cross in Silver. In fact, Preuss' letter clearly said that S&L's last big order from the PKZ, in July, 1944, was for both the German Cross in Gold and the German Cross in Silver. I immediately posted that, even though German was your language, your translation was wrong. You did not even acknowledge my correction, but kept on in the thread as if nothing had happened.

Sadly, on June 12, the error was repeated. In another thread you condemned a purported German Cross in Silver by S&L (which others, including me, also happened to think was fake), but your reason for condemning the cross was as follows:

"I am quite sure that this cross is a post-war made example. And here is why I think so:
In 1977 Mr. Preuss wrote in a German magazine that he received an order in July 1944 for German Crosses in Gold directly (as it was the norm) from Dr. Doehle of the PKZ. No German Crosses in Silver!"

This was so upsetting that I simply posted a copy of the Preuss letter, without comment. Finally, you got it and acknowledged your mistake. I am glad you did because everyone could see it.

You are so prejudiced towards anything involving S&L that you have lost all perspective in your eagerness to simply criticize and condemn, whether the facts justify it or not, or whether your supposed foundation for criticism is accurate or not.

I do not know what is going on, but you cannot claim the high ground in discussions regarding S&L. It has become simply a pre-judged vendetta.

[Andreas Klein]

I was following this thread with high interest and would like to make some comments to it:

1.
I'm quite sure that many stuff and tools had survived the war:

a.)
I have somewhere in my files an article of a newspaper located in the area of Lüdenscheid when the 1957 awards were introduced saying that the makers were shocked that the 57 awards came with a design without swaz. They had covered the wartime tools and hoped that they now could use it. With the new - non swaz - design they were forced to produce new tools because the wartime - with swaz - design couldn't be reworked.

b.)
I have seen the wartime tools from Carl Wild, Hamburg with my own eyes in 2010. and they are still there where i could look at them.

c.)
I have seen the wartime tools from Deschler, Munich with my own eyes in 2014.


2.
The fact that tools survived the war isn't an evidence that makers started with a postwar production on this tools.

a.)
I have the balance sheet of a maker which was located in the Russian occupied area of germany. Still in 1955(!) they had thousands of cases for the iron cross and half finished combat awards in stock.

b.)
When Franki and i had been in Hamburg to visit Carl Wild they showed us boxes with hundred of half finished iron crosses and half finished means:

- full blackened core
- frosted frame
- frosted setup with a 100 mark on the needle

The only thing which was missing was the put together of these parts!

[colin davie]

Carl Wild had "100" marked needles? W&L is 100 no?
C

[Andreas Klein]

Sorry Colin, a writting bug caught me ... it had been 107 marked setups.

[Nordmark]

I wasn't collecting in 1953 (or 1945 or 1950, either), but I did start in the later 1950's and I "heard things" that maybe are not in general circulation any more. There is such a thing as "institutional memory" in this hobby. Some of it is pure BS, but some of it has turned out to be very true.

I know a "part time" dealer in Hamburg, who inofficially deals in militaria to increase his pension. He has a superb collection and collects since the late 50ies/early 60ies. He also has been a long time customer of S&L since then, and he always said, there was not the slightest chance to obtain an award with a swastika on from Steinhauer & Lück.

I don´t know what to make of this, but as Gentry said, it might be total BS, but it is indeed not the first time I heard this, when talking to long time collectors.


Regards,


Daniel