Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Leroy]

Thanks again for the translation, Norm.

I would point out that there is no "paragraph break" in the original text, but one now appears in the translation. I believe this may explain why I thought , when I first read it (as a native English speaker), that if S&L was out of stock, the item would be available for the customer in 4 weeks. I was criticized for this translation by Uwe. Seeing this now, I still wonder if I was not correct the first time and that the segment can be read that out of stock items will be restocked by the manufacturing companies (plural)(i.e. the companies which make the products) in 4 weeks. Are they talking about the ribbon manufacturer (which seems to be just 1 company), S&L (just 1 company), both the ribbon manufacturer and S&L (2 companies, now plural), or other (unnamed) companies (Souval & others, unnamed, plural)?

I apologize for being pedantic, but Germans aren't very good, it seems, in writing in delineated paragraphs.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Gentry,

good and valid question you are raising

For me as native german it's clear that the sentence with the 4 weeks when something was out of stock isn't adressed to the firm of S&L.

For me it sounds more generalized like "if something is out of stock we can get it within 4 weeks from the makers we buy our stuff from". What i can't say for sure is if the sentence was adressed to out of stock ribbons only or if it was meant for everything (ribbons + cases + awards).

I tend to say that it was adressed to everything but here i'm not 100% sure. I'm only sure that the sentence wasn't adressed to a specific maker.

[Norm F]

Top left hand corner of the article. Sorry the translated pieces weren't in order.

"Damit fing es an Private Schützen Orden waren die ersten Auszeichnungen, deren Herstellung nach dem Kriege von den Alliierten wieder erlaubt wurde. Herr Knoth zeigt den eben eingetroffenen "Nachtrag 1953" zum Prospekt einer Lüdenscheider Firma. Da gibt es blitzende Kreuze, Sterne und Medaillen, ganz nach Wunsch versilbert, hohlgeprägt und mit oder ohne farbige Emaille-Auflage. Für die Schützenköniginnen gibt es prächtige Diademe aus versilbertem Blech. Die Durchmesser der Orden liegen ungefähr bei 7 cm, und meist wird Herr Knoth gebeten, die Bandösen abzufeilen und auf der Rückseite eine Verschraubung anzubringen, damit der Orden auf der Brust getragen werden kann."

"So in the beginning, private shooting medals were the first awards after the war whose production was allowed again by the Allies. Mr. Knoth shows the newly arrived "Supplement 1953" to the advertising material of a Lüdenscheid company. There are seen gleaming crosses, stars and medals, all optionally silver plated, hollow stamped, with or without colored enamel overlay. For the markswomen there are magnificent tiaras made of silver plated sheet metal. The diameter of the medals are approximately 7 cm, and usually Mr. Knoth is asked to file off the ribbon eyelet and affix a screw to the back, so that the order can be worn on the chest."

[Norm F]

Any way of identifying the maker of that Ritterkreuz from the photo? Available for 14.50 each when ordering a minimum of 20 pieces at a time.

"The Knight's Cross, which he carefully adapts to a customer (above), according to the price list (left) costs in the simplest form 14.50 DM, but only with a minimum purchase of 20 pieces."

Also, any idea why there appears to be a letter "e" faintly superimposed over the left side of the cross photo?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Anyone who says that they know for sure the maker and type of that cross is not being honest. I have the feeling that it may be an S&L. On the other hand, it could be from someone else (including Souval) as the frames are virtually identical in shape (and close on beading design - which you can't see anyway here). If you "squint" at it, the bottom of the "3" in "1939" appears to be below the bottom of the "9" in "1939", a Souval characteristic. On the other hand, the eyelet at the top of the frame, through which the loop passes, appears to be not fully finished, a characteristic of some postwar S&L crosses, but also of some wartime S&L crosses. One thing I feel strongly about (that I mentioned elsewhere): the white portions of the ribbon are significantly wider than the black edging, yet the width of the ribbon appears to be of correct proportion. This leads me to think that the ribbon has a 30 stitch count, not the normal 25 or 23 encountered. I have never seen a 30 count ribbon of correct construction which was postwar.

P.S. Regarding your comment on my earlier translation of the 4 week time period: there could be unnamed suppliers, which holds the door open.

P.P.S. I think the "e" on the photo might be part of Uwe's watermark.

[Legion Condor]

The eye seems to me like Klein & Quenzer!
But do not have much idea about RK, S.
Greeting Hans Günter

[Norm F]

"Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends the customers themselves to his main supplier Steinhauer and Lück in Lüdenscheid (this company also makes the new Order of Merit of the West German Federal Republic). The prices for the awards are now, however, significantly higher than during the war. Some of them have risen by 100 percent, and for those interested, the new acquisition of their order often means a heavy financial sacrifice, which is incomprehensible to many. Many a customer who scrimps and saves for his Knights Cross complains bitterly that he today has to pay dearly for what formerly was the bestowed gratitude of the fatherland."

This excerpt certainly suggests S&L was the supplier of the Knights Cross, but granted it's not explicitly stated...

To be clear, I'm not suggesting any conclusions about when these medals were actually manufactured, just that there are a heck of a lot of them available in 1953. For ribbons, it's clear they continued to get new post-war made stock from the named ribbon manufacturing company.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

This excerpt certainly suggests S&L was the supplier of the Knights Cross, but granted it's not explicitly stated...

To be clear, I'm not suggesting any conclusions about when these medals were actually manufactured, just that there are a heck of a lot of them available in 1953. For ribbons, it's clear they continued to get new post-war made stock from the named ribbon manufacturing company.

Best regards,
---Norm

Your interpretation could certainly be correct. If I HAD to bet, I'd say the cross was an S&L.

Bob Hritz has said many times (and said again in the last few days) that Souval had 1000's and 1000's of original pieces into the 1960's, and it was nowhere near the supplier S&L was during the war. How much did S&L have left? Only God knows now.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Regarding Souval in Vienna one should not forget that the whole of Austria was occupied by Sowjet troops until 1955 and Vienna was under a Four-Power status just as Berlin. I don't know in which sector Souval was located but I would think that trading and shipping of "Nazi" items wasn't too popular with the Sowjets.
Surely the activities were far more relaxed after the Sowjet troops left Austria. I think only then Souval became prominent.

[Brian S]

The really interesting part of the REVUE article in connection with this thread is the price list with the Spanish Crosses. All available, the silver and gold version as "unecht", meaning not made of real silver.

Dietrich

This is REALLY important!

[Norm F]

This is REALLY important!

Although, it sounds like it's not yet universally accepted here that the pricelist even pertains to S&L? Implied but not explicitly stated unfortunately.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Regarding Souval in Vienna one should not forget that the whole of Austria was occupied by Sowjet troops until 1955 and Vienna was under a Four-Power status just as Berlin. I don't know in which sector Souval was located but I would think that trading and shipping of "Nazi" items wasn't too popular with the Sowjets.
Surely the activities were far more relaxed after the Sowjet troops left Austria. I think only then Souval became prominent.

I do not believe that this is correct. Vienna was a "Four Power" area, but was treated as an "open city". Watch Orson Welles' 1948 film The Third Man and you will get a good feel for it.

[Tom B]

Regarding Souval in Vienna one should not forget that the whole of Austria was occupied by Sowjet troops until 1955 and Vienna was under a Four-Power status just as Berlin. I don't know in which sector Souval was located but I would think that trading and shipping of "Nazi" items wasn't too popular with the Sowjets.
Surely the activities were far more relaxed after the Sowjet troops left Austria. I think only then Souval became prominent.

When I visited the Souval shop in 1975, it sure did not look like a thriving business enterprise to me. My next trip to Vienna a couple years later I did not bother to make another Souval visit. Tom

[Brian S]

Although, it sounds like it's not yet universally accepted here that the pricelist even pertains to S&L? Implied but not explicitly stated unfortunately.

Best regards,
---Norm

Then, for the holders of '4' marked crosses all the better that S&L wasn't shipping S&L crosses...

Or are you saying the price list wasn't from S&L at all?

Don't you hate lazy people Like Brian S who don't read every post then jump in asking questions.

[Dietrich Maerz]

In my history book Vienna was in the Sowjet zone, greater Vienna itself was divided amongst the Allies in zones and central Vienna was an international zone with changing of occupation forces. Just like Berlin.
The movie, as good as it surely was, is Hollywood.