Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[speedytop]

Hi Andreas,

"See attached a price list dated 1956 from the retail seller Sedlazek with the handwritten note "originals as awarded or in my words postwar stuff in wartime quality"

No! That has nothing to do with "wartime quality".

The envelope is from "18.1.57"!
Here is only meant, that it is meanwhile known, that there will be in a few months a new law with regulations about several decorations without NS emblems. And therefore Sedlatzek "shout": Here is the last call, the last chance, to buy originals with the NS emblems and with the swastika!


And here is a very nice article in the SPIEGEL from the beginning 1958 (the two there shown advertisments on the right side must be from the end of 1957 or very early in 1958), just for fun :

http://magazin.spiegel.de/EpubDelive...l/pdf/41760429

Uwe

[Leroy]

The movie, as good as it surely was, is Hollywood.

It was actually a British film, filmed on location in Vienna in 1948 (although some interior shots, and parts of the sewer scenes, were shot in the UK), but no matter.

The point I was trying to make was that Souval was active and could have been a supplier, at least for some things. As things stand, it is entirely likely that, in 1953, S&L was the "main" supplier, but we don't know exactly what it supplied. I would think that the common awards could easily be original leftover stock and that many other pieces could still be assembled, in that time, from leftover parts. Harder to get pieces probably had to be newly manufactured or acquired from others. It is a very great shame that no detailed photos of pieces are provided. As said, it could at least be fairly determined that the RK ribbon on this cross is, almost to a certainty, original and does not match the typical S&L postwar ribbon. The ribbon manufacturer named in the article was an EK ribbon manufacturer during the war, but is not known to have made RK ribbon.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Uwe
Agreed... in this case and at this time "originals as awarded" could be read as "with swaz" aswell - I do not rule that out.

[Dietrich Maerz]

It was actually a British film, filmed on location in Vienna in 1948 (although some interior shots, and parts of the sewer scenes, were shot in the UK), but no matter.

I should have put "Hollywood" in quotation marks to make clear that I meant it as a synonym for "not really history, but more entertainment" - from whoever made the movie.

The point connected with this thread is that Souval IMHO most unlikely produced or openly sold and shipped Third Reich orders and medals out of the occupied Vienna (he was, however, located in the US-zone) and out of the Sowjet-occupied zone of Austria before 1955. After that point in time for sure, as we all know.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Norm, thanks very much for the translation work, that is a very big help

Two sentences stand out for me:

1. "The sold goods do not come from inventory, but rather were not delivered until after the war, as documented by accounting receipts."

I take this as meaning "not leftover wartime stock", but rather new, postwar production. This is very important for collectors, but back in 1950s why would such a piece of information be included in this article? I would think that like today, customers would want to have the original thing, not something newly produced so to see this specifically mentioned in the article is interesting.

The other sentence that stands out is "Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends the customers themselves to his main supplier Steinhauer and Lück in Lüdenscheid (this company also makes the new Order of Merit of the West German Federal Republic)."

Its probably true that Knoth had other suppliers, but from this sentence it is clear that S&L was his main supplier. Naming S&L so freely and openly contradicts the notion that manufacturing and supplying swastika-bearing awards in the postwar era was not so much of a taboo as it has been made out to be. From this article I get the sense it was a legitimate business that wasn't "hiding in the shadows".

No doubt other manufacturers were involved, other than S&L but I still wonder to what extent. Clearly S&L was the main supplier. Its no surprise then that S&L was also the main supplier of 57er awards production. Other makers were involved early on like Deumer and Assmann, but it seems that they were shortlived and soon moved on to other businesses, whereas S&L was the mainstay well into recent times.

Tom

[Norm F]

... the leftovers from the firm which supplied Deschler with their setups and this year i was shown the original wartime tools from Deschler in a private collection.

Now bring this together:

Someone has the Deschler tools and stamps a badge with them and solders their setup on the badge.

Would there be any chance for us to recognize the postwar strike?

- badge design and die flaws like accepted pieces?: correct
- typical Deschler setup: correct

Conclusion: every rule we constructed in the past about the look and feel of a Deschler badge would say yes to the badge but the sad true is a no.

Gee. Makes one wonder about the "Deschler hoard", especially considering the threads showing that items in that hoard seemed to age remarkably quickly within the first 5 years they went on the market.

Best regards,
---Norm

[speedytop]

Hi,

I'm very surprised and astonished, that the article with the large headline "Ein paar Meter Ordensband" (a few meter medal ribbons) could be interpreted in another way.

It is (for me) clear, that there was not only one supplier for medal ribbons, and the manufactorer Nierhaus was possibly choosen as the "main supplier" like St&L as main supplier for decorations.

I think, that it was more by chance, that there was typographic no passage, based on the amount of letters in the last row before my added red line.


To think, that ST&L, producing decorations since several years after the end of the war, e.g. different sports badges (since 1948 and 1952), the new order of merit since 1951, would order many thousands of decorations from Souval in Vienna in the beginning 50s in Germany, is a little bit adventurous for me.
Do you think that ST&L could make much money with such difficult transactions?
900 (1,800) km in such troublesome times for a few DM profit?

Uwe

[Leroy]

"The sold goods do not come from inventory, but rather were not delivered until after the war, as documented by accounting receipts."

Tom, I believe this sentence clearly is referring to the ribbons.


"Sometimes Mr. Knoth sends the customers themselves to his main supplier Steinhauer and Lück in Lüdenscheid (this company also makes the new Order of Merit of the West German Federal Republic)."

Tom, I agree with you. The problem is that we can't know exactly what was supplied. How much was old stock? How much was assembled from leftover parts? How much was really new production?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Gentry,

I think you are right about the ribbons being the "new manufacture", but I find it interesting that new ribbon was needed at all so early on. If there was so much leftover stock, then why the need for new production? And more importantly, if all the leftover ribbon was already used up by 1950, is it safe to assume the same for leftover badges? I know it is an "assumption", but logically it seems to be a safe one given the fact that souvenier hungry GIs would be more interested in badges than ribbons......so it seems only logical that badge stocks would run out quicker than ribbon stocks.

Admittedly speculation...

Tom

[Leroy]

Good question, Tom, but who knows the answer now? Maybe Knoth had ribbons for his medals, but needed additional stock to supply others (those veteran organizations mentioned) who ordered it by the yard (maybe to replace dirty or missing ribbons for pieces their members already had). All speculation now.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I'm very surprised and astonished, that the article with the large headline "Ein paar Meter Ordensband" (a few meter medal ribbons) could be interpreted in another way.
It is (for me) clear, that there was not only one supplier for medal ribbons, and the manufactorer Nierhaus was possibly choosen as the "main supplier" like St&L as main supplier for decorations.

I am also very surprised.

Do you think that ST&L could make much money with such difficult transactions? 900 (1,800) km in such troublesome times for a few DM profit?

Not to forget the Sowjet occupation of that part of Austria.

Here is another Spiegel article, dated September 1951. The widow of Peter Schneider in Bonn decorated her business window on the occasion of a homecomer reunion with swastika adorned orders and medals (in violation of the order No.7 of the Allied command - as the Spiegel claims). RK with ELmS for DM 87, German Cross for DM 72, as well as other decorations. She also took orders for the medals from potential customers. After several days the medals were confiscated and she re-decorated with non-offending medals, such as the Sportabzeichen.
The article does not say whether it was her old stock, but the fact that she took orders lets one assume that she knew how to get (additional) supply (with swastika) if needed.

In this contect it also needs to be mentioned that regarding the book "Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen" - Geb/Kirchner/Thiemann (4. Auflage, Carl Heymanns Verlag, 1985), the standard volume about the German order and medal laws, the law No. 7 of the Allied Control Commission and the seemingly related No. 8 (article IV) does NOT prohibit the manufacture, sale, or trade of any orders of medals from any time before the date of the law, meaning Third Reich and also Kaiserreich. The possession is also not prohibited, only to wear the decorations in public is. I am still searching for the original text (maybe Uwe can help) but from what I gather right now, post-war production was not prohibited - at least not verbatim as far as I can tell from the above mentioned book. If that holds true, there was nothing to hold back any company in West-Germany to start up the machines and supply the demand.

[kraut72]

The eye seems to me like Klein & Quenzer!
But do not have much idea about RK, S.
Greeting Hans Günter

Hans

this 100% NOT Klein & Quenzer KC

[Legion Condor]

Hans

this 100% NOT Klein & Quenzer KC

ou are right. I just think that the ring eyelet is very thick.
But I was mistaken determined. RK are also not my area.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Gentry,

I think you are right about the ribbons being the "new manufacture", but I find it interesting that new ribbon was needed at all so early on.

The main producer of ribbons for the knight cross, the iron cross and the war merrit cross in the third reich was the firm Carl Knoblauch from Berlin.

Taking into account that Berlin was totally destroyed in the war and in the beginning 50 part of the beginning cold war i tend to say that Knoblauch wasn't able deliver things into a swaz related market (anymore).

So it is not a big surprise to me the Knoth had to find a new manufacture for ribbons. Btw Nierhaus was a really good choice .... they allready had produced the same ribbons like Knoblauch during the war and so were able to deliever the same as Knoblauch.

[Leroy]

The last few posts (before Andreas, 'kraut72" and "Legion Condor"), especially the recycling of the told-before Spiegel story and the confusing "amateur lawyer" attempt to negate (by reference to the "standard volume about the German order and medal laws") the Allied prohibition on manufacture and display of any material (read "swastika" as being high on the list) which tended to promote or glorify National Socialism, have convinced me that there is a real effort here to engage in revisionist history to suit the views of certain people. This prohibition, by the way, which was one of the first acts of the Allied Control Commission in 1945, was still in effect at the time of, and was (whatever its true enforcement status by 1953) the entire raison d'etre in the first place of the Revue article. (But I wish you luck in your endeavors to research this and understand the fine legal nuances of what you locate.)


There has yet to be any actual proof here of new production of anything other than sport and shooting badges - which necessarily involved re-design of some swastika-bearing dies (and which had the approval of Allied authorities as specifically noted, for valid reason, in the Revue article) - before, approximately, 1950. There is opinion, piled on top of conjecture and speculation, stated in such a way to make you believe it was fact, but no actual documented proof at all. It is embarassing and frustrating to see those who claim to be "sticklers for proof" engage in such activity. Worse, IMO, this further undermines collector confidence (what little is left of it), to the long-term detriment of this hobby.