Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bruce,

you are absolutely correct in your observations. However, we have to draw the line somewhere and it is ( I think ...) universally accepted that everything "made" after the fall of the Third Reich is no longer an original. And if it is not an original, it is a fake.

I know that this is a hard word, but try this mind experiment: somebody finds all parts of a badge in an old building in the year 2014. He happens to have the skills to put them together in a perfect way (which is NOT rocket science) and sells them as originals. Is that still a post war constructed piece or is it a down-right fake?

For me the only important thing is that one knows what one has. If one elects to collect post-war items from S&L or any possible other company, there is no problem at all, IF one knows or at least is critical about what one has.

Unfortunately - and that is the crux of the matter - that is not always the case.

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Dietrich......

Is that still a post war constructed piece or is it a down-right fake?

IMO it is a post war construct whether put together in 1945 or 2014. If it were represented as a wartime piece then we enter into fraud. Dietrich, I do understand the desire to label anything put together with real parts, after 7/6/1945 , as FAKE.

I will reverse direction here, and agree with you that any possible post war constructs should be labeled as FAKES. By the strictness interpretation anything NOT made in Germany, before 7/5/1945, by German, or conscripted workers, in German, or Austrian, factories should be called FAKE. It might pain me to think so, but after all...right is right. The line does have to be drawn somewhere, and that's as good a place as any.

After Andreas's post, showing the discoveries made in 2009, I tend to believe that those Carl Wild pieces are only some of what was left over from the war years. That is one of the reasons I believe that post war constructs are a reality. How to differentiate them from wartime pieces is where the eyes roll, and the headaches begin. It would be near impossible to know the difference. Therefore, I scarcely think we would have to worry much about labeling that type of construct as FAKE, or genuine. How could we tell? If we did the work ourselves, or were present when it happened...the only ways I could imagine.

So, even in speaking about, and using the term post war construct, I think I have entered into a area that is unsolvable by any means, but the aforementioned ones, and just maybe the use of a electron microscope.

For me the only important thing is that one knows what one has. If one elects to collect post-war items from S&L or any possible other company, there is no problem at all, IF one knows or at least is critical about what one has.

Unfortunately - and that is the crux of the matter - that is not always the case.

Agree.

Regards,
Bruce

[Thomas Durante]

All I am saying is this: The possibility that any German company did produce, on a small scale or on a more factory-based style, Third Reich related items cannot be ruled out.
The task how to differentiate betwee pre- and post 8 May 1945 is tough and might be in many cases impossible to determine. But that impossibility should not lead to the conclusion to declare anything in a gray area as good.

I can only agree with this Dietrich here. The tendency seems to be "prove its a fake" rather than "prove its original" and that is where the problem lies. Third Reich originals were only produced for 12 years; the fakers have had the other 70 years. With the prices that these badges command, the onus should be on the collector to prove the badge is a wartime original and not the other way around.

I do not rule out immediate postwar production, including creating new dies and this thread has only reinforced my opinion that it was certainly possible. There was a demand that only grew stronger with time. Demand alone would be good enough for any smart businessman, but if you add in the fact of a thriving black market and survival was at stake, then you have a perfect recipe for postwar production. We know for a fact that S&L created new dies, its just a matter of when that is still left for us to prove.

If S&L didn't create the German Cross during the war, how many requests would it take for them realize that they could make more money if they should make a die and produce it? That is the crux of the argument for me, I have seen no evidence to prove they didn't do this in the immediate postwar period. On the other hand, there is no evidence to say they did start new die production immediately either. This unknown may be OK with most other firms, but when it comes to S&L we need to be more cautious because we know they definitely produced postwar. They should be held to a higher standard and rightly so.

Andreas puts forward some good period documentation of the denazification. Publicly I can certainly believe that wearing, owning, producing anything with a swastika on it was taboo. That still continues to this day. But does that mean that GIs still didn't want souvenirs or early collectors didn't want "every badge that was made during the Third Reich" or that returning German soldiers didn't want "awards with swastikas the way they earned them"?

Nazism and the swastika were certainly hated and despised by most and that still rings true today, but this one photo still is the most poignant to me. Certainly this guy has no problem being photographed wearing an RK and the seller talking openly about trading swastika-laden artifacts. This tells me that it wasn't as taboo as some claim.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Nazism and the swastika were certainly hated and despised by most and that still rings true today, but this one photo still is the most poignant to me. Certainly this guy has no problem being photographed wearing an RK and the seller talking openly about trading swastika-laden artifacts. This tells me that it wasn't as taboo as some claim.

Tom, please take into account that the shown photo was made in 1953 and can't show you the situation of 1946 or 1947.

With 1950 and the cold war the allied opinion about german miliarism has changed because now their formers friends in russia were labeled as bad boys. In these days german milistarism became accepteted again because it was needed for a possible conflicted with the east.

So it is no surprise that the man on the photo had no problems beeing photograhped with a swaz.

Have you ever read magazines like "Der Freiwilige" dealing with the heroic battles of the Waffen-SS? All of them started 1953 and later ....

Mind had changed in the early 50's.

If S&L didn't create the German Cross during the war, ...

They produced it during the war. The last big order was given to them in late 1944 --- discussed and proven several times, you can ask Dietrich.

They should be held to a higher standard and rightly so.

Well, Deschler started to work again in 1945 aswell ... so you agree that all L/10 badges are now all possible postwar too, taking into acount that i was still able to buy their wartime setup in 2012?

You have seen the unfinished Carl Wild crosses and i could show the evidence that Carl Wild were active after 1945 aswell ... so now all 107 marked crosses of the same design which i found are now possible postwar fakes?

Klein & Quenzer survived the war undamaged ... so now all mint 65 badges are possiible postwar?

Aren't you surprised about the time-capsule protecting the firm of Rettenmaier, so that we could found their badges in 2013/2014 in a condition as they were produced yesterday?

Do you see in which problem you are running with the try to narrow down the history in a simple rule. It is not a small S&L problem we are talking about. The REVUE article clearly proves that S&L was one out of X suppliers for the postwar demand. We only jump on S&L because that is the easiest way not to see the overall problem and downplay it with a "beware S&L is probably bad, the rest of the makers are for sure and without doubt good" rule.

If it is your opinon that an immediate postwar production took place than your conclusion must be that every maker which hadn't been destroyed for 100% made possibly postwar badges and our collections are full of fakes.

[Thomas Durante]

Tom, please take into account that the shown photo was made in 1953 and can't show you the situation of 1946 or 1947.

Mind had changed in the early 50's.

If this is true and it was OK, then why were the 57ers designed without the swastika Andreas? After all, these were soldiers that actually fought in WW2 and wanted the awards "with swastika as they were awarded during the war", surely it wouldn't have been a problem in 1957 if the swastika was now all of sudden OK to wear in public. Yes, the article picture is from 1953, but it shows that owning something with a swastika was not taboo; despite all the denazification that had gone on. And I would go even further to say that its amazing that this guy is not just wanting to buy an RK.....but actually looks like he is going to wear it! To me that is amazing in the postwar era. I can't imagine that being OK today, let alone a just a few years after the war ended.

They produced it during the war. The last big order was given to them in late 1944 --- discussed and proven several times, you can ask Dietrich.

Why are they listed in Dietrich's DK book under "other possible makers"? I understand they got an order to make the DK, but where is the evidence they actually produced it before the war's end? I can show you paperwork that says all CCC in silver should be made from nickel silver a full year before the war ended, but there is no evidence that this was ever abided by by any maker.

Lets replace "DK" with the Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge then. There is no evidence that S&L produced this badge during the war. Even the LGABs on the postwar barter boards are by other makers (not the identified S&L type), so if they didn't make it during the war how many requests for this badge would it take for Herr Lueck to decide to make a die for it so he could fulfill the wishes of his customers?

Do you see in which problem you are running with the try to narrow down the history in a simple rule.

Its not a problem to run down this path if its the truth Andreas. I have many S&L badges in my collection (as well as Deschler, Wild, Rettenmaier, etc). And YES, it would suck if it turns out these are all postwar fakes. I am willing to listen to all the evidence and if it turns out that these badges are postwar then ofcourse I will not be happy about it. But I will not turn my head and pretend that everything will be OK. I have seen a lot of people do this; they ignore the evidence that what they are holding is a fake. I am sure you know some of these people as well, and I just feel sorry for them. I have always collecting knowing in the back of my mind there is the chance, however small that some or even all of the badges we collect could be postwar made. None of us were there, so that should always be a possibility in any hobby. The way to rectify that is to provide irrefutable proof and evidence of wartime production. That is what we all strive to do here on a daily basis in the forum and why I think Dietrich's RK book stands out amongst all others. He provides as many wartime links as possible for every cross he shows in his book. I think this is the way of the future in our hobby.

We only jump on S&L because that is the easiest way not to see the overall problem and downplay it with a "beware S&L is probably bad, the rest of the makers are for sure and without doubt good" rule.

No Andreas, we jump on S&L because they are specifically mentioned in the article. And we know for a fact they produced swastika-bearing badges after the war.

Can we say the same about Deschler, K&Q and Rettenmaier? Did they definitely produce swastika-bearing items after the war like S&L definitely did? The fact that these other firms still have left over parts from the war is a good sign to me, and exactly what I would expect from a company that stopped producing on May 8, 1945. They put their leftovers in the attic and moved on with their lives. Steinhauer and Luck on the other hand, chose a different path. Evidence is in the Revue article.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Why are they listed in Dietrich's DK book under "other possible makers"? I understand they got an order to make the DK, but where is the evidence they actually produced it before the war's end?

Where is the evidence that they didn't produce it?

I can't say why Dietrich has used this or that wording. I think it was not possible for him to draw an exact line betwen wartime and possible postwar version, so his wording is imo correct because he can't give you an 100% COA. He his more careful in using words like "for sure" and "without doubts" and that's a behaviour i respect him for.

Btw Weitze sold a few years back a sample case of a former salesman from S&L .... and it included a german cross.

... so if they didn't make it during the war how many requests for this badge would it take for Herr Lueck to decide to make a die for it so he could fulfill the wishes of his customers?

Not knowing if the moon is from green cheese is the evidence that it must be from green cheese. I can't give you an evidence that S&L made it but you can't give me an evidence that they didn't made it too ... you believe it.

Same question to you: how many request were needed by Deschler to produce their german cross or any other award again?

No Andreas, we jump on S&L because they are specifically mentioned in the article. And we know for a fact they produced swastika-bearing badges after the war.

Please read it again ... the article doesn't say that S&L had been the only suplier, it clearly says that they were one of some more suppliers.

Btw can you identify the cross on the photo as S&L one and if yes that it was postwar made? Perhaps S/L sold him leftover stocks of wartime ones? Remember that awards were only sold to customers which could prove with documents that they were allowed to wear it. So how many knight crosses were needed ?? - based on the wards number not more than 8.000.

And know ask yourself how many possible customers for an IAB or a normal croos were around .... much much more and for sure a better candidate to start a mass production with new dies.

Can we say the same about Deschler, K&Q and Rettenmaier? Did they definitely produce swastika-bearing items after the war like S&L definitely did?

You can't say this definitely for S&L as well, it's our opinion because they were named as suplier (note: not as producer!) and the S&L design was used by fakers. You say that S&L did it to make money ... correct: but Deschler, K&Q, Wild were in need of money too ... and perhaps they are the "other suppliers" namend in the revue.

They put their leftovers in the attic and moved on with their lives

I think that i still was able to get my hand on their products in 2009 - 2012 speaks for itself. If you believe that all this had been forgotten stocks than you believe that the moon is from green cheese.

You told me that germany was a big blackmarket and thousands of souvenir hunting allied soldiers ("have cash, want swaz") were in need of german awards and those firms should have forgotten all the awards to wait for me. Not the closest logical conclusion imo.

Evidence is in the Revue article.

Correct ... it is the evidence that more than one firm were involved in postwar production.

[Dietrich Maerz]

They produced it during the war. The last big order was given to them in late 1944 --- discussed and proven several times, you can ask Dietrich.

According to Mr. Preuss the order for the Gold and Silver grade was given in July 1944 to S&L. That is all we know at this point in time. So far no S&L DK has been found in any Klessheim hoard nor has any been found in a group.
That could make the DK by S&L a perfect early post-war "ex works" product. Maybe they had all the parts and only needed to finish the order. Or it was already finished and they "sold" them post-war.

[Andreas Klein]

According to Mr. Preuss the order for the Gold and Silver grade was given in July 1944 to S&L. That is all we know at this point in time. So far no S&L DK has been found in any Klessheim hoard nor has any been found in a group.

Giving them around 11 months to produce them during the accepted wartime. Yes they haven't been found in Klessheim ... so what. There is no inventory list or document as definite evidence what had been in Klessheim in which amount and for long. We only have the story of souvenier hunting soldiers swearing that this or that item was for sure taken by them in person in Klessheim. Trust them or not ...., quite nice whatever a german eyewitness has to say or is written in a document is nuts, but the story of a souvenir hunter is a valid source.

It's fact that it was in the salesman case from Weitze, it's fact that they have been found in the heritage of german soldiers which could be dated to November 1944 and February 1945 but the groups had been talked to death that a S&L cross is "for sure" and "without doubt" not a wartime one because it's known that S&L never produced the german cross - the circle is closing.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

again, I am not saying that they did not deliver to the PKZ in Berlin and from there to Klessheim. IMHO you are making the old mistake a lot of people make: take one solid fact and then go free wheeling about everything else what could or might have happened after that.

Maybe 11 months was enough, maybe not? Maybe S&L did get the required material only in March? Maybe the train from Lüdenscheid to Berlin was bombed?

Sure there is no list of what was in Klessheim! But what kind of argument is that? The Schloss Klessheim was the last resting place of the stock of the PKZ, there is not even the slightest doubt. US soldiers arrived there and took the stock, that is also documented. All one can do is to say: this soldier took it from Klessheim and therefore it was there. Nothing more and nothing less. That does not mean that everything else one wants to be real and that was has not been found so far might have been on an imaginary list that we do not have - and therefore existed!

When I say that so far none has been found than that is an absolute correct statement from my point of knowledge. Strangley enough it is always the dubious pieces which are missing in Klessheim - the correct and accepted one have all been found there. Wonder why that is so? If some will be found in a believable and untouched Klessheim hoard then my knowledge has been broadened.

So you know where the salesman case was since 8 May 1945? You know who put it together and when? The groups you mentioned, how sure are you that the soldiers got that cross? Or did they replenish after the war after they came back from the prison camp. A lot of S&L RK B-Types are in such groups.

But there is no need to discuss the German Cross by S&L. Two years ago nobody knew about the order from Doehle to Preuss and I am happy I found that little piece of evidence. Maybe down the road there will be more. At this point in time is all we know this: S&L got an order in July 1944 to produce the German Cross in Gold and Silver. And that so far none have been found in Klessheim.

[Andreas Klein]

IMHO you are making the old mistake a lot of people make: take one solid fact and then go free wheeling about everything else what could or might have happened after that.

No at all i'm following they way of research which is done by several people in this thread. I think i have shown enough photos, documents, films and namned eye witness to prove that i don't jump on the first thing which i like to see.

But always the same people - which couldn't show anything which we both would call an evidence to backup what they are saying- try to tell me that the earth is flat disc and the possibility that this could be true is enough as evidence.

Sure there is no list of what was in Klessheim! But what kind of argument is that?

I think that it's the demand for an definite evidence similiar to the ones demanded above from me. I can't say what S&L, Deschler, Wild, Quenzer did in 1946 - and you can't say what had been in Klessheim.

If some will be found in a believable and untouched Klessheim hoard then my knowledge has been broadened.

Nice joke .... no one will ever believe you in 2014 that something had been untouched. If there would be something in such a hoard which was already talked to death you will have several people naming you a story teller and that your hoard was without doubt manipulated.

Re read this thread and what kind of facts allready had been declared as not true.

So you know where the salesman case was since 8 May 1945? You know who put it together and when?

What kind of argument is that? It's as valid as the US soldier swearing you that he took the stuff he shows you out of Klessheim. You hadn't been with him in Klessheim. Perhaps he had bought his stuff from the fresh output of german award makers on the blackmarket?

A lot of S&L RK B-Types are in such groups.

Well, we both know the mint Klein & Quenzer cross sold in early groups and for sure they all belonged to the groups áccording to the seller.

But there is no need to discuss the German Cross by S&L.

100% agreed. You got a mail from me.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I think that it's the demand for an definite evidence similiar to the ones demanded above from me. I can't say what S&L, Deschler, Wild, Quenzer did in 1946 - and you can't say what had been in Klessheim.

That is not true at all. I can say what was in Klessheim so far! And only the pieces that clearly have been in Klessheim are used to serve as a witness of pre-May 8, 1945 production. I am NOT using any pieces that might have been in Klessheim or might be on an imaginary list as a possible argument for possible originality.

Nice joke .... no one will ever believe you in 2014 that something had been untouched. If there would be something in such a hoard which was already talked to death you will have several people naming you a story teller and that your hoard was without doubt manipulated.

That is also not true. Do a search here in the forum and look at the photos of some of the Klessheim groups. Or at some newspaper articles of send-backs in 1945. You can certainly spot the difference between tables full of medals and one story of one piece in one single group (which is used as an argument for originality for a whole series of orders!)

That kind of argument is that? It's as valid as the US soldier swearing you that he took the stuff he shows you out of Klessheim. You hadn't been with him in Klessheim. Perhaps he had bought his stuff from the fresh output of german award makers on the blackmarket?

No, not possible. If you know the whole PKZ-Klessheim-3rd Infantry Division history, then you know what is what. I have to send you my article. There is more to it then just some badges.

Well, we both know the mint Klein & Quenzer cross sold in early groups and for sure they all belonged to the groups áccording to the seller.

Yes, and one quick check into the history of the PKZ immediately revealed the fraud. He did not like that at all....

[Nick Carraway]

Andreas,

Do you have any more info on Rettenmaier? I was told they relocated and continued production. I was also told one can purchase their wares today, though my friend was less than forthcoming although he hinted at Gablonz.

Thanks,
Nick

[Norm F]

Andreas,

Do you have any more info on Rettenmaier? I was told they relocated and continued production. I was also told one can purchase their wares today, though my friend was less than forthcoming although he hinted at Gablonz.

Thanks,
Nick

I too thought earlier anecdotes suggested closing and relocating, but seems they're still going strong in Schwäbisch-Gmund:
http://www.alois-rettenmaier.de/Startseite/1

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Where is the evidence that they didn't produce it?

Andreas, with all due respect, this is not how science is done. The onus is to prove that S&L did produce the German Cross during the war, not the other way around. By your rationale, then every firm produced every badge if there is not any evidence they didn't make it!? That is a flawed premise, and I think you know this

I can see that neither of us will change eachother's mind and that is OK. I am happy to leave it at that. It is certainly a great discussion and collectors can read all the information laid out and draw their own conclusions.

Tom