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**StefanK.** · 01-25-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Please go on!

Dietrich

**InfanterieSammler** · 01-25-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Sepp45 View Post

But John, thats my point. This is at least something; some light into the history of Ritterkreuzträgers. I beg the moderators no to close or delete this thread; it has taken me months of research. Let me continue this investigation that I'm sure will bring more satisfaction and joy to all of us, than rather be a bad database.

Sepp, no one is asking for this thread to be closed. It's fun to see all the pics of KC's and groups. I'm sure most here appreciate the time you've put into this.

Originally posted by Sepp45 View Post

I have a question to all collectors: if you tell me that there's no substantial claim for some RK's, where's the substantial claim that says otherwise? I mean, perhaphs sometimes is better to trust a felling or willing to accept that REALLY is the RK in question (until proven otherwise, of course).

Sepp, you are the one making the claim that these RK's belong to individual recipients - the burden of proof is yours. With regards to it being "better to trust", that is your preogative. Given the nature of the hobby, or rather the individuals in it, I do not advocate this approach.

Originally posted by Sepp45 View Post

How sure can you all be about your own RK's then? How can you trust the one you hold in your hand, if it takes a miracle (for some) to really, really believe that's the KC of a brave soldier?

I don't collect KC's for this very reason. I have owned a few though and I enjoyed them as just that, a KC. Personally, I value the documents more. If I am going to spend $8000-$12,000 I would rather have an entire KC document group. Of these, I own several.

So as Dietrich has said - please continue.

John

**desiro** · 01-25-2012, 04:59 PM

This thread is superb and a great reference,crack on Sepp

**Sepp45** · 01-25-2012, 05:18 PM

Ok, let's continue. I'll still try to do my best. If pictures you wants, pictures you get. From now on, when I post "RK awarded to...", we'll just asumed that is it, until prove otherwise.

RK awarded to Oberleutnant Helmut Harnack

Source: http://fecom.creatuforo.com/1-tema2705.html?start=0

OL awarded to Romanian General Mihail Lascar

RK awarded to Standartenführer Alfons Rebane

Sorry I coudn't get some better pictures. This was taken during his burial, in Estonia.

The RK and others awards are currently on the Lakewood archives, Estonia.

Source: http://alfonsrebane.webs.com/autasudjaauastmed.htm

Thanks to all of you for the kind words.

**dornhoffer** · 01-25-2012, 05:37 PM

I echo this. Thank you very much for your efforts, Sepp. I have enjoyed this thread very much, and please continue. In my field of scientific research, we categorize our research by levels of evidence with 1 being a double blind study and 4, a review of the literature. One is the most valid in its results, but 4, which would be similar to what you are doing, is very valuable as well just in a different way. Whenever I consider an attibuted grouping, I do a net search to see if the name or cross comes up in the results. If so, I question the validity of the KC's history. I considered one cross from a dealer that I found was also in another collection listed on the internet. I bought the cross, as it was a nice original S and L micro 800 with a nice 3 oclock beading flaw, but paid the price for an unatrribulated cross to the dealer as he couldn't provide provenace. By doing what you have done here, it does contribute to this internet database and could be useful. You are not trying to make money from this, your aren't tring to deceive anybody, you are simply searching the net to collect as much information as you can for your new friends in WAF and saving me the effort of doing it myself.
Thanks again for your efforts,
John

**Sepp45** · 01-25-2012, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by dornhoffer View Post

I echo this. Thank you very much for your efforts, Sepp. I have enjoyed this thread very much, and please continue. In my field of scientific research, we categorize our research by levels of evidence with 1 being a double blind study and 4, a review of the literature. One is the most valid in its results, but 4, which would be similar to what you are doing, is very valuable as well just in a different way. Whenever I consider an attibuted grouping, I do a net search to see if the name or cross comes up in the results. If so, I question the validity of the KC's history. I considered one cross from a dealer that I found was also in another collection listed on the internet. I bought the cross, as it was a nice original S and L micro 800 with a nice 3 oclock beading flaw, but paid the price for an unatrribulated cross to the dealer as he couldn't provide provenace. By doing what you have done here, it does contribute to this internet database and could be useful. You are not trying to make money from this, your aren't tring to deceive anybody, you are simply searching the net to collect as much information as you can for your new friends in WAF and saving me the effort of doing it myself.
Thanks again for your efforts,
John

Thank you very much John for the words. People like you makes me want to continue posting this photos. I value a lot this kind of messages, thanks.

Regards,
Sepp

**markus** · 01-25-2012, 06:16 PM

Many great arguments brought forward here this afternoon!

Personally I would consider an 'AFFADVIT' by the award winner incl. photos of the item as a good proof of provenance. This includes the confirmation of a notary public.
And even that will not necessarily be 100 pct water tight.

I think the healthiest way to collect KCs (which like John M. Donovan I don't) is to separate oneself from the 'collector-fantasy' of believing that the cross one has was in this-and-that battle, dangling on the neck of a certain KC holder. The reality is usually different: A LW cross in a WH group and vice versa.
Better to enjoy the crosses for what they are and not fall for wanna-be-true collector fantasies. This way one will not be disappointed to much. Many times we collectors want to believe so much in a story/an item we start to believe our own lies I guess.

Again, an 'AFFADAVIT' would be my personal choice to feel best about the origin of an item, incl a certain remaining risk.

Saludos,
Markus

**Sepp45** · 01-25-2012, 06:53 PM

Let's continue:

RK with OL awarded to Korvettenkäpitan Bernd Klug
This nice RK belongs to WAF member ChrisJ

Source: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=RK+grouping

Regards,
Sepp

**borodinenko** · 01-25-2012, 06:57 PM

Sepp very good job. I appreciate and I repeat, it's a feast for the eyes. continue like that.

**Sepp45** · 01-25-2012, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by borodinenko View Post

Sepp very good job. I appreciate and I repeat, it's a feast for the eyes. continue like that.

Thanks comrade!

I also thank WAF member Markus for aiding me finding Michael Wittmann's RK.

RK with OL, Swords and Diamonds awarded to Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann

Regards,
Sepp.

**markus** · 01-25-2012, 09:41 PM

The positive and interesting detail with the Wittmann group here is that it includes an AFFADAVIT from the widow. A letter (posted below) and seperate detailed photos of the awards, signed by the widow (as can be seen on the previous photos).

It's obvious though, reading the letter (in German) that someone prepared it for the widow for her to sign. She signed in good faith, but IMO did not know what she was really signing.

Anyhow, we know that these awards came from her estate and that at least the oakleaves and the OL&Swords were sent to her via HStuf. O. Günsche for replacement purposes after her husband's death in Normandy. It's highly unlikely though, that Wittmann wore these awards imo, as it states in the letter she signed, when he burned up with them in his Tiger.

Anyway: The Affadavit is the key here and in IMO the way such a group should/must be documented.

Cheers,
Markus

ps. The formal award document to the swords was not part of the group which came from the estate.

Attached Files

Wittmann010-web.jpg (47.4 KB, 569 views)

**Craig Gottlieb** · 01-25-2012, 11:51 PM

I think the Wittmann group is the single best RK grouping that exists. Didn't know he was awarded the Diamonds ... I am sure that is a typo.

**Gran Sasso** · 01-25-2012, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by markus View Post

It's highly unlikely though, that Wittmann wore these awards imo, as it states in the letter she signed, when he burned up with them in his Tiger.

Wittmann´s Tiger 007 didnt burned. If he would have burned, there would be no way remains of uniforms and insignia to be found with the remains of the crew, in 1983.
The medals were taken by a farmer who burried them in 1944, and are still in normandy.

**markus** · 01-26-2012, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb View Post

I think the Wittmann group is the single best RK grouping that exists. Didn't know he was awarded the Diamonds ... I am sure that is a typo.

I wouldn't go that far. Whilst Wittmann is obviously an impressive figure, the group as such
is surpassed by far nicer ones of SS personalities in the past 3-4 years IMO.

**Craig Gottlieb** · 01-26-2012, 12:12 AM

It's just personal opinion. The real "awesomeness" of the group are the documents and photos. I've flipped through Wolfe and Hardin's binder of these documents, and they are amazing. Photos of Hitler, signed by Hitler, of the Oakleaves, and the Swords (if memory serves) being awarded. Telegrams from Himmler. Original photos of Wittmann just minutes after battle (you can see a very confused and shell-shocked Wittmann).

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