"K" Tab & Smock - the rest of the story

[RobertE]

The K tab in my opinion is not correct , I am with Kammo man , Dr. strangelove and John T, I have seen three original pattern K tabs which all exhibit the same traits , this one has none of them and compared to a original tab is very poorly done. I also will not show my tab and reference , really do not need to get a better fake , sorry
jimt

Jim, this is a nice original K tab you would do well to study - if you ever find one of these in the woodwork like the original poster did, don't pass on it. It is good.

John is not saying this is replica (John, please correct me if I'm wrong). He is saying that it varies from the other examples posted - which also differ from each other - and to discuss the fine points of embroidery would tip off the fakers. John recommends we don't delve into thread counts and the finer points on the forum - but is NOT saying this is a replica.

Owen maintains it's a fake, and that's fine.

s/f Robert

[Robert999]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but thought posting here instead of creating a new one would save some forum space. Anyways, my question concerns the picture posted of the Oberscharfuhrer in post#45, and it's this, did those K tabs ever make it onto early war combat tunics as was the case with vertical TK tabs?

[Waffenreich]

For those who have come on and commented so far I just want to say thanks.

Whether your opinion is in favor of the item or not, your input is important to a debate that will enhance our collective understanding of these items. Let's keep it civil and related to the item itself please as I do not want this Thread shutdown or deleted. For those who want to question my integrity, or the veracity of the story let's take it to a PM so we can "get to know each other a little better", or better yet - save it for the SOS so you can call me a liar to my face.

So last night a good friend of mine and fellow collector was in town and came over to get caught-up over a few beers. In looking at the group he pointed something out that I hadn't realized. I haven't had the time in the last few days to look at the paperwork closely, but he brought to my attention that the news lealets said Flossenburg Concentration Camp on them, and then in one of them was the name of the vet as an editor. Today I took pics of these to show the vet's name on two envelopes, and while doing that I noticed that he was in Company "K". Now seriously, is this just a coincidence that there is a tab in this group with a "K", especially considering one of the stories in the leaflets talks about Co. K moving to the SS "guard" barracks for billeting?

I will wrap my comments up later tonight on this Thread as I have a couple of thoughts that I hope we can all chew on objectively. Till then, best regards and thanks for making this a frustrating, yet educational Thread.

vr

Bob

[Waffenreich]

KZ Flossenburg newsletter produced by Co "K" 357 IR.

Vet's name on the letters - PFC Geo W. Ashman Jr.

[Waffenreich]

Vet's name in the newsletter as an editor showing his assignment to Co. "K".

Story in the newsletter about them moving to occupy the SS guard barracks.

I'd say this is the source of where this tab came from. Probably a Dienstrock hanging in a locker or wardrobe.

[chrischa]

That does seem more than a coincidence that he took a tab with the K on. I like that.

[Chris Weiser]

Good evening everyone. Lots of interesting comments on this thread so I thought I would throw a few of my own in. I went to visit Bob last night to shoot the **** and do some SOS planning. We had a few beers, looked at his collection, talked about the upcoming trip, and talked about what was happening with this thread.

We spent from 8pm until about 1am looking through the material in this group trying to understand why it is being questioned. I was able to handle every single piece and it is truly one of those collections you always hope for. I have read the negative comments about the K tab and these comments are totally unjustified. If you had the opportunity to examine this tab firsthand you would not doubt the authenticity. The tab alone speaks for itself without anything else to back it up. The construction of this tab is exactly what you would expect to see regarding the base material, feel and look of the wire, crispness of the embroidery, quality of the buckram, and look of the RZM tag. In my opinion when you discuss something that is quote “Textbook” it is hard to assign that to items fashioned by humans and not machines. Think about the variety of wire embroidered runes and skulls that are considered original. Why would that same potential not exist for these tabs? This is the type of piece that should be considered favorably, as one of probably several acceptable variants because of the context that it appears in. So not only was there a K tab in the grouping there were several other camp tabs and the Vet’s unit history placing him at Flossenburg at the end of the war. You have photographs, personal paperwork and a camp newsletter with the guy’s name in it. How the hell do you get more original context than that? I have seen all components of this group from the addressed box it came in from Allentown Pennsylvania to the photo of the old man wearing the blurred edge smock (which is a f’n screamer by the way). Without a doubt this is just a super “as found” grouping that speaks for itself.

Bob thanks again for having me over last night. As always it was a pleasure and you’re handling this like a true gentleman in the face of criticism that neither you nor the tab deserve.

[RobertE]

Chris, that paperwork is just fantastic - thanks for posting it and thanks to the vet for keeping it! Talk about providing proof of placement and access to get that tab...and interesting as heck to read thoroughly, I'm sure.

s/f Robert

[Sonderkommando]

Also, search the internet for any pics of staff at K.L. Flossenburg.....you just might get lucky!

[RobertE]

There is no dissent on the tab amongst SS insignia collectors, so I think we can safely move to unanimous agreement that is a tab we'd like to own - unless such a tab is outside your collecting interest, of course. The tab is original, certainly, and very nice as well as that great smock and Dachau bin pieces.

Well done on the haul, Chris.

s/f Robert

[Ian Hulley]

There is no dissent on the tab amongst SS insignia collectors

If Doc Strangelove and Jim Toncar say they don't like it I believe you cannot justify that statement.

Ian

[RobertE]

Neither of them said they didn't like it. Strangeglove said:

"Unusual structure to the K tab. Not what I would expect to see, but if you know where you got it from and your happy its all good."

In terms of it being bad, John said nothing of the sort on it being a replica, to be clear. He said this tab differs in construction from some of the other tabs posted(which differ from each other), and he chose not to illuminate on the topic so as not to pass construction features to the bad guys (fakers). Fair enough.

I would add that even with insignia template(s), SS bullion sleeve eagles are all over the place on embroidery execution. Same with police eagles, TKs, and other template designs. It is the same with the K tabs - embroidery was intended to neatly cover the cardboard, with good symmetry, not satisfy thread-counting collectors 75+ years later. Of course they are going to be different - no revelation there.

s/f Robert

[Waffenreich]

Good morning gents,

Thought I'd do my morning pass through on this Thread to see where we are. A couple of notes:

* Owen (et al) - I asked that we keep this Thread civil. I think the fact that the mods deleted some of the posts here from early this morning show that patience is starting to run thin and this Thread can easily get locked down, or worse yet - deleted. That would be a tragedy as this Thread will serve to educate collectors and I can assure you will culminate in some valuable lessons for a few people on keeping an open mind in this hobby.

* Jim T and "the Dr." - with respect to an open mind - I have known you - Dr. since 1993 and met you Jim in 2001 at the MAX in Pittsburgh. In addition to the respect I have for both of your expertise, I saw through our conversations at shows (and in reading your comments on other Threads here over the years) that you both maintain a reasonably high degree of objectivity. Jim, the one thing I cannot understand is how you could base your assertion that this tab is "not correct" on the study of just 3 (yes 3 is what you said) samples? I am a Defense Analyst in my post-military career and if I made an assertion based on say only 3 indicators of something I'd be laughed out of the Pentagon. Considering the rapid expansion of the camp system in the late 1930s and number of these that were probably produced, a sample size of 3 gives no basis for credible or empirical comparison. I challenge any SS collector to state with absolute certainty and evidence sourced in period data that there was only one maker of these tabs. JohnnyA has already indicated that's not the case by citing tag 439/37. First, that assertion would be ludicrous as we know from the approach the SS took under the RZM in the manufacture of bullion eagles, wire TK tabs, wire runic tabs, and bullion/wire cufftitles. Was there a design standard to which the manufacturers were required to conform in their production of these pieces? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean that stitch for stitch, or the templates (Unterlagen) for the same item across different manufacturers is going to be identical. That is a fact and we know it. There was some discussion the other day between my buddy Chris and another WAF member on the periphery in this discussion about "Probe" criteria for these items. Can anybody show me a single example of a "Probe" sample for anything Heer, Luftwaffe, KM, or SS for that matter that goes beyond the basic identification of the item? I believe not. I am intimately familiar with Probe pieces having had, and handled, dozens over the years and what is submitted to the approving authority (OKH, OKL, OKK, RF-SS, etc.) is the basic description of the item with a sample attached. If, and that is a big "IF", there was one done for these "K" tabs it probably said something to the extent of "Gothic K executed in cotton-thread for mannschaften, and wire-thread for Unteroffizieren with twist cord piping, center positioned and parallel to the vertical sides of the wearer's right-side black collar tab". I'm sure a basic sample is then submitted to the RF-SS and RZM for approval as the design standard and then samples from manufacturers start coming in who would like to submit a bid for production. Some goon in the RF-SS Bekleidungsamt probably looks at the submitted sample and says "Ja -dees ist close, und cheap too. Make SS 200 of your "K" design. Danke, Tschuss". Ok, I'm having a bit of fun here, but I don't think that's far off from how the system worked. We as collectors put far too much faith in the degree of criticality that may have been exercised by these people in a time when expansion across all facets of their instruments of national power was happening so rapidly that they were probably ink stamping s... to a point where their arms hurt every day. This is why I believe we find variations in the execution of designs on insignia, awards, uniforms, etc... Because "close enough for government work" was the same then as it is today. We know there were more than one maker of these "K" tabs and to think each maker produced them of identical design is just not logical, nor practical, and has been proven time and again with the other types of insignia I mentioned (across all Services too).

* With respect to the "veracity" of this group - since yesterday I have been privy to some information that came from a phone discussion between two people who have been participating in the discussion about this tab, and the group on a larger scale. The things I heard just blew me the f... away. First, one of the individuals actually believes this tab is original, but won't come out and say it. Second (and I love this one), that this whole grouping story is part of a larger nefarious "conspiracy" that emanates from a certain mid-west city (and specific person) that has been at the center of some dubious activities. I about fell off my couch laughing when I heard that because if that is what Jim T, the Dr. and Owen actually believe then every time a group is sourced by somebody other than "the TR militaria gods" there will always be a boogey man behind it. Seriously, this is so f'n disrespectful to me, the memory of PFC Ashman, and the geezer I got this from on so many levels that it makes my head want to explode. OK - I'm busted - I'm involved in a sinister plot with Spectre, to legitimize a bogus tab by finding a group from a guy in Company "K" of a unit that liberated Flossenburg. You guys reading this know who you are and for God's sake you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Mark my words - I, and every other collector who has been kind enough, and wise enough to come on this Thread and post a favorable comment will be vindicated one day soon. I am as tenacious as a bulldog and will find another piece of evidence that connects this tab to Flossenburg in 1945. It's sad that I have to waste my time doing this, but if it serves to enhance our education and understanding of the context of these pieces then it's time well spent.

A couple of last things - First, I find it darn ironic that some of the "heavy hitters" in the SS community have expressed an interest in this tab via PM, BUT, won't come out publically in support of it. Second, I really hope if/when the doubters come to terms with the originality of this that they will come on here and say "yes, in consideration of the evidence I can live with this being an original item". Pretty simple and painless. I've had to do it a number of times in 40 years of collecting and you know what - not only does it really have a cleansing effect on the soul, it shows people you're human and can recognize when you've made a mistake.

Thanks for reading this and I hope you'll agree that none of it was meant to be an attack on anybody in particular. I'm just getting really bummed watching a perfectly legitimate piece and grouping get ripped to shreds for reasons that I just can't comprehend.

Good hunting and enjoy the rest of your day.

vr

Bob

[Jeff V]

Enough of the drama. It is just a pice of cloth, not the end of the world if someone thinks it is a fake. Let's just keep on topic of why it might be real or fake and leave the rest out.

[krikke1980]

I do like the tab for sure. It is clearly very well made craftmanship.
Thanks for showing this nice and rare tab.