Heinz Macher and Fritz Witt grouping.

[Max Wünsche]

I dont agree, I think with the advent of these so-called super fakes and items such as on this thread being outed and proof that even some of the well known experts being fooled, how can it not have a broad and far reaching affect on the hobby as a whole.

Good items will end up having question marks over them simply due to the fact that no-one can tell the difference anymore, although I hope that there will be sufficient expertise amongst the older collectors to still tell the difference. As it stands it seems many with this knowledge choose to remain quiet as they feel they would be aiding the fakers moreso than helping out the newer collectors. Thankfully the WAF and forums like it exist where people can at least get some knowledgeable opinions instead of playing russian roulette with their hard earned money.

Its a freaken minefield...

I think you make very generalised comments as if one day everyone will wake up to the fact and be able to spot a fake a mile away, the truth is not so straightforward given the fact that people are being ripped-off almost daily. For every good dealer there are 1000's of knob-jockeys flogging their

As for your comments of realestate and good areas holding value, clearly living in Germany has not exposed you to the experiences and aftermath of a housing bubble crash... Good and valuable areas are far from immune..

I only collect what I know is good:

Cultural stuff - better say NS/SS art objects including Allach - are a top investment for sure.

Original period uniforms of high ranking personalities as well - but unfortunately the majority are fakes as shown within this thread.

Good uniforms and groups will hold their value - and when the fake bubble bursts will be the only survivors within that market segment and probably go up once more.

Good and valuable real estate was never really hit by the bubble as well - and is stronger than ever.

Anything else will be recognized as what it has always been - worthless junk.

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Max and Judas great comments by both of you on the subject. Max I agree with everything you are saying my friend. I am with you on the fact that these fakes will be a big problem in the future. It will come to a point where you will need a lifetime of expertise to tell a real one. Then just like now in some cases you will have a guy saying good and one saying bad. Now think about all the bad uniforms in collections now. How many of these will hit the market with the family member swearing it's real. And one guy will say it good and the next will say no. Who do you believe and will you spend top dollar on that piece? I won't and I bet there will be a lot of you who feel the same. When that time comes the only way I will buy one is if the price is so low I can't pass it up. Now all the guys who have made investments in these thing they didn't do it to loose money. So what happens then? I say there will be people selling the ones they have inherited for what ever they can get. And when that happens the market or bubble whatever you want to call it will bust. Guys does that sound like a good investment now? At today's prices I think if you ever want to sell do it now.

If guys are already keeping these higher up uniforms in the closet I'm not the only one who sees this. And I do think this is happening as we speak last years SOS is a perfect example. Last year I think I remember one super nice SS uniform and one SA I'll call very nice on display. If we go back five six years I can think of a half dozen at least. This tells me guys are scared that there uniform will be seen as a out rite fake or a put together. And when the ord gets out th e value hit the floor once it come out in the open it vulnerable. Let's see how many will be on display this year .

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Yeah, I'm just expressing what many are surely only thinking.

If Kelly believes the story and is happy with having bought into it
it's alright I guess. Imagine your dream would shatter..!

Hmm, a picker buying the documents from auction for EUR 12+
to add them to a tunic, fieldcap, belt, medals and then offering
the whole set for sale to an American dealer/collector the same
month the documents group was won at a public auction?!

It surely sounds very strange to me. It's even worse than Kai's.

Let's see when the story, eh 'group', is up for sale again...


Another great example of the classic: BUY THE ITEM, NOT THE STORY!


Only for the record, I'm not attacking Kelly, but only showing another
scam case of where a good paying customer is pulled over the table
with a poorly fabricated story and some either fake or willingly cashing-in
family members involved.

Btw, I'm sure that many of my still living veteran friends would sign
any kind of certificate that a certain item belonged to them during the
war. They'd even take photos with the items in hand etc. They'd do
it for free and they wouldn't even care. They'd be happy to do a favour.
Sad, but true!

Markus

...with this everything is said, that's what I'm doiing for more than 40 years...
Pieter.

[DonC]

I follow these threads about corrupt dealers and put-together or outright fake ensembles closely and have come to the following general realizations:

1. Some people will allow themselves to be deceived by slick-talking dealers or stories regarding items. I suspect we've all been there at one point or another - I certainly have. Hopefully we learn for these incidents, but some obviously do not.

2. No matter how much is put out there about questionable groups or items, some will choose to ignore the evidence.

3. I think that forums like this are very useful for those who wish to keep an open mind about questionable items. I hear "God, I can't believe he went ahead and bought that after everything that has been said" at least twice a week on here just relating to cloth items, so the lesson should be that some people are beyond help and it does no good to rail about it - some people just can't be reached. . Caveat emptor, as they say. Some people seem to live to be deceived, and Barnum knew what he was talking about.

4. I think it is healthy to question an item or group unless it has ironclad provenance. This is certainly not unique to militaria collecting - almost any sort of collectible is faked, down to lunch boxes and pedal cars. Ultimately, those who buy the item have to be happy with it.

I applaud those who "out" dishonest dealers - just don't expect everyone to be on board!

Don

[Thorsten B.]

Perfect compendium!

Groups with ironclad provenance like the Karl Wolff uniform group from one of the members here will not only hold their value but after the burst of the bubble will continue to increase in market price.

The cleaning process will not start when stupid rich people buy - like now - but when they start to sell - when they start to sell again because of other economical bubbles bursting which will simply force them to sell.

And then the sh*t will hit the fan.

If you don´t really know what you have on board in your cloth collection you better sell those pieces - now!

[rob NL]

That grouping that Kelly bought had a very good price IMHO.
All of the items together would be worth more if sold separatly.
That tunic is a stunner.

[Max Wünsche]

Well, I never thought I would see the day but I agree with you on what you have said here Thorsten.

Now you will have to excuse me as I have to go look outside and check for flying pigs.

Perfect compendium!

Groups with ironclad provenance like the Karl Wolff uniform group from one of the members here will not only hold their value but after the burst of the bubble will continue to increase in market price.

The cleaning process will not start when stupid rich people buy - like now - but when they start to sell - when they start to sell again because of other economical bubbles bursting which will simply force them to sell.

And then the sh*t will hit the fan.

If you don´t really know what you have on board in your cloth collection you better sell those pieces - now!

[John Pic]

Is there a photo of the Tunic Rob ?

[rob NL]

I applaud those who "out" dishonest dealers - just don't expect everyone to be on board!

Don

Thanks Don.
I knew that some people would not understand, or rather kept the whole event to themselfs, because they don't want to be the one that almost bought fake items and almost got burned.
So everybody can say; Wow, he was blind, or Wow, he doesn't have any knowledge on uniforms. ( I do now)
Many people try to act as an EXPERT, and pretend they know it ALL.
That's also a reason people would not come forward to tell a story like this.
Now,THAT is EGO, not me trying to buy items that I like.

Many collectors, if not ALL got burned at one time.

As I said, if I even helped one fellow-collector from buying that stuff, then I am satisfied.

That is the ONLY reason I did this.

And if I don't get offered the real coming highlights from dealers because of this, well F*CK them.

I learn more from these events then any book or story you read or hear.

Anyway, anybody want to buy some SS uniforms?? Just kidding

[rob NL]

I only collect what I know is good:

Cultural stuff - better say NS/SS art objects including Allach - are a top investment for sure.

.

You mean wooden plates or funiture?
Is that safe to buy? Or are you afraid your collection is worthless now???

[rob NL]

Is there a photo of the Tunic Rob ?

John, didn't you see that link that was shown here? I am looking for it but am on my cell.
I thought that you commented on the tunic as not being the one from Winkler.

[rob NL]

http://www.militaryheadgear.com/arti...nd-Kelly-Hicks

Found it

[rob NL]

Btw, see that can of rum, it was found by a friend of mine, we got really drunk on that stuff
100 years old almost

[John Pic]

Rob I would need to see closer pics to know if it is from the same set. The NCO tunics from the set went to collectors in the U.S. I believe not sure about the officer one I was told it was bought by a guy in San Francisco but that may be the one Bob Demel had which was an NCO rank.

[Thorsten B.]

You mean wooden plates or funiture?
Is that safe to buy? Or are you afraid your collection is worthless now???

Well, just within the last two years period cultural items - or better to say: NS/SS art objects - surely have gained more and more attention and have successfully stepped into the market of historical military antiques in general.

Three-five years ago as one example an SS wedding plate was not only totally unknown in the scene and market and most collectors would not have realized that they are not only beautiful and decorative but still comparatively cheap to be had but combined with great quailty and ideological importance - which let any buyer really enjoy the purchase of these objects and see them as a senseful addition to their existing collections.

If you ever stood in front of a big DHW closet and these DHW furniture pieces in general you will just see and somehow feel the cultural agenda in and with which these pieces have been designed, constructed and are uploaded with:

They send out an atmosphere of national pride, power, rural dignity and value.

They make you feel like sitting in a castle, secure and powerful.

They are made for rulers - not for slaves.