Wewelsburg heraldic plaque

[Thorsten B.]

Yes, "gemüthaft" or "gemütlich" is indeed what you defined, Michael.

And it is in german language a positive way of describing living and feeling warm, well beloved and comfy in a house that one owns - may it tiny but an own house.

Because living in a leased house can (must not, though) sometimes mean the abrupt end of feeling comfy when one has to move.

Now guess how many people after the disastrous results of Black Friday in 1929 were not able anymore to finance this "little" dream and maybe you get an idea how people felt in those days and why things partially developed like they did...

[Bob Hritz]

Thorsten,,
Perhaps kitsch is not what I am thinking. Perhaps 'folkish' art is what I am trying to say and that means, to me, that the art is the peoples art, not that of decadence or abstractness. I am trying to say art style that is understood by the traditions of the common or average people. I don't know the appropriate German word to describe this.

Bob Hritz

[JoeW]

Kitsch is defined in Webster's New Collegiate as "artistic or literary material of low quality designed to appeal to current popular taste."

[Michael Fay]

Kitsch is defined in Webster's New Collegiate as "artistic or literary material of low quality designed to appeal to current popular taste."

Yes, but we on waf sometimes are also thinking in the German language. As this is a word with more than one meaning and different meanings depending on nationality and professional occupational jargon it is apparent that variant interpretations will both aid in comprehension and further obfuscate the issues.

[Michael Fay]

Volkische

Thorsten,,
Perhaps kitsch is not what I am thinking. Perhaps 'folkish' art is what I am trying to say and that means, to me, that the art is the peoples art, not that of decadence or abstractness. I am trying to say art style that is understood by the traditions of the common or average people. I don't know the appropriate German word to describe this.

Bob Hritz

HAH,
this is a word my German professor cringed at...
Volkische was a word he did not like me explaining to his class in an assignment where we could pick the words...

He was originally from Germany and knew it's (political)connotations perfectly.
But he did not understand it's folksy and pleasingly comfortable artistic connotations at all---and he did not want to know.

Good times....

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

tell your Professor from me that he´s a bad fart.

I think that is a word he does not like - but he will surely understand it´s complete connotations, Hehe...

[Thorsten B.]

Bob,

no harm from my side - german language can be tricky.

But your definition in your last post (77) fits indeed very well!

[Capt. R]

Thorsten
usually, your posts are informative and interesting but recently have become more difficult to understand. Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I have no idea what you are talking about in reference to me. Makes no sense! I thought you were defending the deaths of those killed at the hands of the nazis. Can you clarify?

[JoeW]

Michael, I provided the dictionary definition as I believe the word inappilcable and prejudicial either in English or German in dicussing the Neue deutsche Malerei.

For those interested in learning more about Wewelsburg and its history, "Heinrich Himmler's Camelot" by Stuart Russell and Stephen Cook can be acquired throught this web link. I think it is a better quality book than the German edition.
http://www.questknights.com/html/order_the_book.html

[Thorsten B.]

To Capt. R.:

One step after the other: you still refused to answer my question in my post 69.

I asked you there:"Since you did not put it already in your last comment: Can you give me a proof for this opinion of yours?"

So it is up to you to clarify that to me and not the other way round.

[Capt. R]

This gets more nonsensical as it progresses.

I used the word "murder." Are you telling me no murder was committed by the SS? Are you saying we have all been lied to and are mistaken about history? Or am I reading your posts incorrectly?

[Thorsten B.]

You still refuse to answer my question - this speaks volumes.

But reading my posts not incorrectly is a good start, though.

By the way: are you grumpy that I do not share my knowledge and pics with you like you wished me to do so in one of your E-mails ou did send to me?

And is it possible that is has something to do with your personal behaviour towards me in this thread??

Play Kindergarden with somebody else and open an own thread for that - and perhaps you will have to try that in another forum.

To impute that I negate what happened in the period of the Third Reich is not only non-based but truly a serious matter!

It does not get more nonsensical but more non-ethical - and this evil imputation comes from you and it is up to you to clarify!

[Michael Fay]

Cease and Desist

Cap.R
you seem less interested in the plaque and associated thoughts than to bait various people who you seem to have an axe to grind with. Or perhaps you just wanting to start an arguement with anyone?
Either way:
Please leave partisan attacks at anyone out of this thread. Especially leave controversial AND WAF rule breaking issues out of this thread.
thanks,
MF

[Capt. R]

Thorsten -
You are a nut. Your responses get progressively more insane. Take your medicine. I have nothing else to say. I harbor no resentment to anyone, esp. to the likes of you.

Michael-
I need not "bait" you, because you always shoot straight. Others prefer to refuse to answer honestly and completely. I am done trying to have a discussion and done trying to clarify attacks on me from others. The record speaks for itself.

[J C Gray]

Returning to the plaque in question...Firstly let me start by saying categorically that this is not a 'Crest'! In Heraldry a crest applies only to a decoration that sits atop a Helm which is sitting atop the chief (the upper third) of the shield, or, as in this case, the helm actually becomes the crest in lieu of any further decoration. A crest is only a very small part of the whole Armorial Achievement and is not even officially part of the actual Coat of Arms.
The rules of Heraldry (contrary to what has been stated earlier in this thread) are basically the same throughout Europe, but the styles of coats of arms have developed in line with local artistic traditions. Apart from the Runic section in the Hußmann book 'Deutsche Wappenkunst' the basic information contained therein is more or less the same as in any other book on Heraldry which I have read. This plaque, of course, does seem to follow a different set of rules than can normally contributed to a coat of arms, so I think that the title of this thread probably describes the item most accurately as a 'Heraldic Plaque' or 'Heraldic Shield' and as we all know, the Nazis were not exactly averse to changing things to suit their own requirements.
To say that all things Heraldic are symbolic is purely subjective, as in a great many cases (if not most) Arms come into the 'Punning Heraldry' category as opposed to that of 'Cognate Heraldry'. That being said, meaningful symbolism was obviously ubiquitous in the Third Reich, so I will endeavour to outline the alleged Heraldic meanings of the symbolism on the 'Wewelsburg Plaque':

Waves: Waves are said to represent a storm at sea which in turn are reminders of providence and that troubles will keep us vigilant and prevent us from becoming complacent.

Sword: Swords of Teutonic Knights were symbols of Truth and Honour and were bestowed on people of stature. Differentiation in types of swords is quite rare in Heraldry with the exceptions of the Scimitar and the Seax (a curved sword with a notched blade) but it could be possible that the sword on the plaque, with it's downturned blade, could represent the Damoclean Sword of Ancient Greece ie. symbolic of the precariousness of fortune.

Helmet: The Heraldic Helm is (by its shape and position) indicative of rank with a helmet of steel being the lowest. The Dexter facing Stahlhelm on this plaque harks back to the rather plain Glockenhelme of the 13th. Century yet still avoids being anachronistic with the rest of the plaque.

Runes: As has already been stated, the Runes on this shield are 'Sowilo' and 'Wunjo'. It has also been stated that these mean 'Sun' & 'Perfection' respectively, however, 'Sowilo' translates into English as 'Sun' but in fact it is representative of Victory and Clear Vision and as far as I am aware 'Wunjo' translates as 'Joy' and is representative of Understanding and emotional satisfaction.
I am not entirely convinced that the image on the shield is in fact a Bindrune...a Bindrune is a blending of two runic characters whereas this looks to be more akin to two Runes in Saltire ie. crossed diagonally. If this is the case, it would lend credence to the theory of a Runic monogram consisting of the initials of an SS member.

I hope that this has been of some interest and hopefully someone will come up with something more concrete for this intriguing item.