Wewelsburg heraldic plaque

[Michael Fay]

found in Padersborn

Joe and Cap.R.,
It has come to my attention that I have been too subtle in my presentation, so to be completely clear:
It was picked up in Paderborn some years ago by WAF forum member and author Robin Lumsden, from whom I recieved it subsequently. I believe he has stated in this thread that he is not claiming to know definitivly what this may be . It is showcased in at least two of Mr.Lumsden's books , and one other that I am aware of.
The other one by Slater, Stephen. "The Compete Book of Heraldry." (Hermes House /Anness pub. 1999,2003) For what it is worth, Slater's book uses it as a an example of what "would have decorated a Knight's chamber at Wewelsburg Castle."

If you seek out Slater's book be careful as there is a edited down edition that does not have the plaque in the book. As far as I know , the Hard back has the plaque, while the paperback volume does not.

Now Alles Klar

[Capt. R]

Michael - thanks for the clarification, however, why did it make it into the book if he doesn't know for certain its origins? I would like Mr. Lumsden to respond, otherwise, people may get the idea that it was put in the book to accelerate sale of said item just because it was in a book.....and one cannot and should not disclaim originality (or origin) and simultaneously sell it as the "real deal," unless it was sold for a reasonable price....does anyone else see my point???

[Michael Fay]

Michael - thanks for the clarification, however, why did it make it into the book if he doesn't know for certain its origins? I would like Mr. Lumsden to respond, otherwise, people may get the idea that it was put in the book to accelerate sale of said item just because it was in a book.....and one cannot and should not disclaim originality (or origin) and simultaneously sell it as the "real deal," unless it was sold for a reasonable price....does anyone else see my point???

Ahhh, just a second Capt R.,
As I said there are more authors ... and I only quoted authors other than Mr.Lumsden.
Yes, the plaque is in Lumsden 's books. It was in Mr.Lumsden's books many years before I ever got it.. AND I did not say or quote anything from his books. I was quoting another author , as I wrote, a Mr. Slater, who said what I just quoted before.

Also, please note: I NEVER said the seller of the plaque claimed what you are saying.

The seller did state he found it in Paderborn years ago.

There is no issue as you have stated it.

That being said, I believe it to be the real deal, and am very happy to have it.

[Bob Hritz]

Michael,

I would be tickled pink to have it hanging in my home.

Very nice!

Bob Hritz

[Capt. R]

Bob, I agree with you, but your comment undercuts my point.

Before I get vilified, I would say that based on its appearance alone, I'd like to have it hanging in my own home, also.

But, my point is simply this:

The plaque is pictured in a book (Himmler's Black Order 1923-45 page 119) featuring original SS relics with Mr. Lumsden's name as sole author on the cover. I think it is a great book. It is well-written and worthy to be purchased and displayed on anyone collector's bookshelf. But if he isn't sure of what it is, why is it in the book? The caption under the picture is sufficiently vague and broad....

It states: "Oak carving featuring a sword, shield, steel helmet and runes, typical of the pseudo-medieval wall decorations which adorned Himmler's castle at Wewelsburg."

But implicit in the depiction and its inclusion in the book is that it is a legitimate nazi artifact being "typical" of Wewelsburg wall decorations.

I'd never question it other than the fact that earlier in this thread, Mr. Lumsden doesn't add any details or elaborate on this plaque at all. In fact, he surprisingly quips that he himself would like to know more about it! I'm saying, don't put it in the book if you are not sure about what it is or unless you know it came from the castle. Did it come from the castle or not? Many newbies get criticized for collecting things and not having originals....well , isn't this a case of an expert having something of uncertain origin?

So, to wrap this up and hopefully end this, I like the plaque and think you have excellent taste and judgment. I never questioned it's origins since I'd seen it in the book, but upon reading Lumsden's post above, I was struck with the thought, "My goodness, even he doesn't know what the heck it is!!!" I may be way off and if so, I apologize. I just want some clarification from the source.

So, Mr. Lumsden, please post something to ease our darkest fears.

[Bob Hritz]

I never thought of any of the trappings at Wewelsburg to be anything but Nazi kitsch folk art. Nothing there is official NSDAP and just the whimsical fantasies of Himmler and those who believed Nazism would turn into a Pagan religion.

The use of shields goes back to the early days of Europe and the fact that Hitler hated the royalty and upper classes, leads me to believe Himmler was just acting out his fantasies in a remote place.

Bob Hritz

[Robin Lumsden]

"Oak carving featuring a sword, shield, steel helmet and runes, typical of the pseudo-medieval wall decorations which adorned Himmler's castle at Wewelsburg."

So, Mr. Lumsden, please post something.......

Sorry................I've been offline for a few days.

The caption above sums thing up correctly.

I found and bought this item in Paderborn many years ago.

[Capt. R]

Don't look at what is written, pay attention to what is NOT said. Read between the lines. Vague and broad wins over specificity I suppose.

I thought we'd get a more elaborate resonse.

[Robin Lumsden]

I thought we'd get a more elaborate resonse.

Well, maybe you did, but I can't really add anything to this.

I bought it in Paderborn.

It is typical of the sort of runic wood carvings used by the SS.

Paderborn is near Wewelsburg.

Many artifacts were looted from Wewelsburg by locals at the end of the war.

If you'd like me to say that this piece definitely did (or did not ) come from the castle, I can't do that. There's no 100% evidence either way.

However, I think that it must be a possibility.

[Robin Lumsden]

............people may get the idea that it was put in the book to accelerate sale of said item.............

Oh, and by the way, I very much resent this insinuation.

I had that plaque for many years before I parted with it. I was sold years after it first appeared in a book...............and it has been in several.

I am sure the present owner would agree that he got it for a very fair price.

Some writers (usually writer/dealers) may illustrate stuff in their books with a view to selling it on at an inflated price the next week.

I am NOT one of them!

[Mark C. Yerger]

No idea if he's still living as I never had contact, but perhaps Russell Stewart has photo evidence or other info regarding the crest subject from the material originally gathered for his book on Wewelsburg. I'm sure it didn't contain everything.

[Kuifje69]

Great thread!

Ps the ring of Pohl Thorsten is talking about is pictured in the great Book Otto und Karolina Gahr on page 94 (sippenring der familie Pohl).

I can make a copy later today.

Best regards,

Rene

[Thorsten B.]

Of course it does not contain everything - that will never be possible anyway because too much has been lost because of destruction, stupidity combined with the unwillingness of historians (and pseudo-historians!) to write something in a honest and true manner about this matter which is called still today "political correctnes".
On the one hand I can only laugh about this ridiculous behaviour and on the other hand it is a big, big loss for education and human being´s history in general because really NO important individual witness and actor (in Germany former SS-men in general are called "Täter" - one another outflow of this 68er generation who claim to know the real deal, of course...) has ever been interviewed!

If you, Mark, wouldn´t have done your great research projects and books this chapter of the history of the SS would have been lost - or landed unexamined in auction houses - forever.

Here in Germany we are desperately in need of a new generation who takes a deeper and OBJECTIVE look onto these matters!

Mr. Hritz´s opinion ("I never thought of any of the trappings at Wewelsburg to be anything but Nazi kitsch folk art. Nothing there is official NSDAP and just the whimsical fantasies of Himmler and those who believed Nazism would turn into a Pagan religion.") is nothing else than a summarized view onto SS-history of this yesterday-generation.

They love Waffen-SS uniforms but only laugh about Himmler´s "whimsical fantasies" - and who was responsible for founding the Waffen-SS?

Yes, in the end it was Hitler himself who gave permission and the name - and the roots of Politische Bereitschaften and then the SS-Verfügungstruppe lead to important players like Hausser, Steiner, Berger, Jüttner, Scharfe (he guided Hausser into the SS!) and - Himmler!

And what is this: "nothing official NSDAP"?

The SS was something of their very own and any ambitions of official SS-members had this focus. Sometimes they were successful (founding Allach or Lebensborn, Wilhelm Loibl GmbH, Deutsches Heimatwerk...) - and sometimes not (building up a self-controlled production of weaponry in the war).

Bob, do not take it personal but would you - for example - call Allach Nazi kitsch?

If so, what are your arguments?

[Capt. R]

[QUOTE=Robin Lumsden;3297369]Oh, and by the way, I very much resent this insinuation.

Don't get angry. Just consider this as a way of clearing up the record. Now you set it straight for the whole collecting world. Clearly, it's an original third reich piece as you have now fully explained.

Plus, I paid you a compliment on the book. Don't let your "anger" overshadow my compliment:

"I think it is a great book. It is well-written and worthy to be purchased and displayed on anyone collector's bookshelf."

[JoeW]

No idea if he's still living as I never had contact, but perhaps Russell Stewart has photo evidence or other info regarding the crest subject from the material originally gathered for his book on Wewelsburg. I'm sure it didn't contain everything.

Mr. Russell is deceased. His English language book "Heinrich Himmler's Camelot" co-authored with Mr. Cook contains two photos: one of the wood Keppler Familienwappen and another period one showing what appears to me to be an identically shaped shield amongst material removed from the castle. That is why I wrote above:

"After having reviewed the photos in "Himmler's Camelot" and my comments above, I would say that while the plaque under discussion in this thread does display similarities in heraldic design to the known Familienwappen found at Wewelsburg, the execution is not similar and would therefore be extra-Wewelsburg. IMO it could be a private execution or perhaps a link to Freikorps as was suggested." (emphasis added)