Wewelsburg heraldic plaque

[Bob Hritz]

Thorsten,

I do not call Allach kitsch. It is very nice porcelin that was made as a profit making enterprise under the SS Economic Work Group.

However, I would not call Himmler, or those who pranced around a round table playing Knights, rational men who had the slightest clue about the coming destruction of Germany. It is their leadership that brought on the downfall. While they processed cute little rings, while at the same time processing the death of of untold millions, I cannot call them rational, or even sane.

While I admire the trappings of the Third Reich for their design and artistic merit, I have little sympathy for those monsters who destroyed Europe and brought that destruction home to the German people they claimed to love.

Soldiers are soldiers and fight for their country. I have the upmost respect for soldiers, but little for the political hacks that ran Germany and sent them to their destruction.

My father always thought Germany lost the war because they wasted so much effort on fancy daggers, medals, and regalia. I believe he was wrong. The war was lost because madmen, like Hitler, commanded vast armies without any knowledge of war stradegy. Himmler, was right beside him and Bormann, running the show. Of course, when the gig was up, Himmler was quick to try and negotiate his survival and the surrender. When that failed, he shed his Reichsfuhrer-SS trappings and fled like a frightened schoolboy. So much for that 'valiiant Knight'.

Bob Hritz

[Robin Lumsden]

No idea if he's still living as I never had contact, but perhaps Russell Stewart has photo evidence or other info regarding the crest subject from the material originally gathered for his book on Wewelsburg. I'm sure it didn't contain everything.

Mark.
Stewart died a couple of years back.
A sad loss as his knowledge on this subject was great.

[Mark C. Yerger]

Mark.
Stewart died a couple of years back.
A sad loss as his knowledge on this subject was great.

Sorry to hear but hope you had contact with him and bits of what he new passed on. I gave them some material used in the Wewelburg, but only had contact with Jost.

It always drove me a bit crazy when researcher/historian types (general term I use for myself and others) passed away but had made no plans for their material. Many I've known the families just threw their files, notes, etc away or scattered it to the winds. From that have made sure to have a legal list of who, what, where, all all I have goes when I'm gone regarding what I have. Hopefully those people will continue to use it in some constructive or productive way.

Mark

[Bob Hritz]

It always drove me a bit crazy when researcher/historian types (general term I use for myself and others) passed away but had made no plans for their material. Many I've known the families just threw their files, notes, etc away or scattered it to the winds. From that have made sure to have a legal list of who, what, where, all all I have goes when I'm gone regarding what I have. Hopefully those people will continue to use it in some constructive or productive way.

Mark

You could not be more correct, Mark. I have known collectors who had detailed notebooks full of valuable information, from their research, and that material was just tossed away when they passed. It is a tragic loss when one's life work is lost to posterity.

Bob Hritz

[Thorsten B.]

Bob,

I think it is really time to clarify some minor(?) historical details and FACTS:

- first Allach was found much earlier (official date 03. January 1936) than most of the parts of the SS Economic Work Group (lateron known as Amtsgruppe W within the WVHA of Pohl), so a real economic system of the SS to gain money just did not exist at that time.

- second Allach was found exactly for the OPPOSITE reason!
Artists should not be "used" anymore for producing Kitsch and mass-production for gaining money but they ought to have more freedom (and financial independence) and quiet time to manufacture (not just produce!) real objects of art - here seen as germanic art, of course.
Allach was part of Himmler´s idea of founding a new Pagan religion with and within the SS.
So for Himmler it was of highest cultural significance and worth any effort to make that manufactury become reality.

And by the way: nobody had to press the well-known artists like Diebitsch, Kärner, Nagy, Benno von Arent, Wilhelm Krieger, Adolf Röhring and others into this idea and manufactury.

And your comment:"...Himmler, or those who pranced around a round table playing knights..."

Who told you such complete nonsense?

This is the old fairytale-story from the memoiries of the "Benjamin" of the SS (that ´s how Himmler defined him in the speech of Heydrich´s funeral in the Marmorsaal of the Neue Reichskanzlei), Walter Schellenberg who actually has never been at Wewelsburg at all!

And exactly these pseudo-historians of the post-war generation continued to spread out that bull**** while nobody ever asked about Schellenberg´s historical source for his comment.

There was NO table round and no SS-knights playing medieval or whatsoever games!

In fact there was only one big room with a big table and it was called "Grosser Gerichtssaal" - no twelve seats, no knight-playing...

But indeed already this name of that room shows the highest importance of the Castle in Himmler´s (and others) eyes - the place where trials within the SS ought to be held in future!

Guess why Himmler was so keen (and again successful!) on installing an own judgement sytem within the Sippengemeinschaft.

No, not really for keeping the things that happened in the different SS-controlled camps - that would not continue all the time. The "Untermenschen" and political and religious enemies would be extinct within at least two generations and then the way would be free for the germanic, SS-leaded Volksgemeinschaft.

It was one another important root of Himmler´s ideas to get back to a pre-christian system of law and order.
When the christianisation came over Germany the germanic system of right was destroyed and the romanic sytem had been installed - that is the key and not your non-based SS-knights games...

I could continue for hours but first you need to whipe out this crazy fictional pseudo-historical stuff out of your head.

By the way: the title of a good american book is "The SS - Alibi of a Nation".

Does not give this title a hint?

What about your idea of a running show of a few actors (Hitler, Himmler, Bormann and some others? - that is definitely nothing what that time was about.

But is shows everything about the influence of bad non-based literature which makes people stupid - Gossenschund!

[Capt. R]

[QUOTE=Thorsten B.;3299357]There was NO table round and no SS-knights playing medieval or whatsoever games!

In fact there was only one big room with a big table and it was called "Grosser Gerichtssaal" - no twelve seats, no knight-playing...


OK, it wasn't a "round" table per se, but merely a big table in a big "circular" or "round" room. Big difference. haha.

By the way, in the next few paras, were you trying to justify the murders of all those folks merely in order to restore one man's ideal of Germanic??? Just wondering.

[Michael Fay]

Oh, and by the way, I very much resent this insinuation.

I had that plaque for many years before I parted with it. I was sold years after it first appeared in a book...............and it has been in several.

I am sure the present owner would agree that he got it for a very fair price.

Some writers (usually writer/dealers) may illustrate stuff in their books with a view to selling it on at an inflated price the next week.

I am NOT one of them!

Hello Robin,
the present owner would agree completely.

[Michael Fay]

Michael,

I would be tickled pink to have it hanging in my home.

Very nice!

Bob Hritz

Bob,
as we on WAF have been allowed to see some of the things in your home, I consider this extremely high praise indeed.
thanks,
Michael

[Thorsten B.]

To Capt. R.,

Don,

to your comment:"OK, it wasn´t a round table per se, but merely a big table in a big "circular" or "round" room. Big difference. haha."
I reply as followed:

if you would read my comment really carefully you could perhaps notice that I do not speak in any way about the "Grosser Gerichtssaal" as being round or circular - no way!

In detail it was the big room in the ground floor of the west wing of the Wewelsburg - this was one of the few rooms that had been already restored and renewed in the twenties by a society who tried to restore the complete building and using it in future as a youth hostel and a regional museum.

This room was used as a room for coming-together of the village community on festivities like official celebration days or private birthdays for example - therefore a stage was installed on the side towards the North tower as well.

Hermann Bartels (for your info: it was the main responsible architect for the whole Wewelsburg project - yes, it was an unfinished project - from the very early days of 1934 until the end) used partially lateron for the first presentation of his own architectual concept for restoring and using the whole Castle in front of Himmler the former work and concept of the architect from the local district of Büren - from whom Franz-Xaver Schwarz (in the capacity of being the Reichsschatzmeister of the NSDAP), represented by Himmler (in the capacity of being the Reichsführer-SS representing the SS) leased the Castle for 99 years paying a symbolic fee of one Reichsmark.

Himmler personally signed the contract - that part of the original contract between the Reichsschatzmeister and the district of Büren is part of the exhibition today and some years ago this last page of the contract (it consists of four pages) has been stolen by "admirers" - obviously because it bears Himmler´s original signature.

To your next comment:"By the way, in the next few paras, were you trying to justify the murders of all those folks merely in order to restore one man´s ideal of Germanic??? Just wondering."

This is the poorest comment I have ever read on this forum - is it caused by jealousy or other base motives?

Since you did not put it already in your last comment: Can you give me a proof for this opinion of yours?

If not I think I have to see it as the attempt of a personal attack.

This would be a behaviour I surely do not support and it won´t be good for this thread or for the forum in general.

So please give me the proof - or get back to polite and human behaviour as it should be when discussing serious things!

Thanks in advance and best regards,

Thorsten

[Michael Fay]

Bob,

I think it is really time to clarify some minor(?) historical details and FACTS:

- first Allach was found much earlier (official date 03. January 1936) than most of the parts of the SS Economic Work Group (lateron known as Amtsgruppe W within the WVHA of Pohl), so a real economic system of the SS to gain money just did not exist at that time.

- second Allach was found exactly for the OPPOSITE reason!
Artists should not be "used" anymore for producing Kitsch and mass-production for gaining money but they ought to have more freedom (and financial independence) and quiet time to manufacture (not just produce!) real objects of art - here seen as germanic art, of course.
Allach was part of Himmler´s idea of founding a new Pagan religion with and within the SS.
So for Himmler it was of highest cultural significance and worth any effort to make that manufactury become reality.

And by the way: nobody had to press the well-known artists like Diebitsch, Kärner, Nagy, Benno von Arent, Wilhelm Krieger, Adolf Röhring and others into this idea and manufactury.

And your comment:"...Himmler, or those who pranced around a round table playing knights..."

Who told you such complete nonsense?

This is the old fairytale-story from the memoiries of the "Benjamin" of the SS (that ´s how Himmler defined him in the speech of Heydrich´s funeral in the Marmorsaal of the Neue Reichskanzlei), Walter Schellenberg who actually has never been at Wewelsburg at all!

And exactly these pseudo-historians of the post-war generation continued to spread out that bull**** while nobody ever asked about Schellenberg´s historical source for his comment.

There was NO table round and no SS-knights playing medieval or whatsoever games!

In fact there was only one big room with a big table and it was called "Grosser Gerichtssaal" - no twelve seats, no knight-playing...

But indeed already this name of that room shows the highest importance of the Castle in Himmler´s (and others) eyes - the place where trials within the SS ought to be held in future!

Guess why Himmler was so keen (and again successful!) on installing an own judgement sytem within the Sippengemeinschaft.

No, not really for keeping the things that happened in the different SS-controlled camps - that would not continue all the time. The "Untermenschen" and political and religious enemies would be extinct within at least two generations and then the way would be free for the germanic, SS-leaded Volksgemeinschaft.

It was one another important root of Himmler´s ideas to get back to a pre-christian system of law and order.
When the christianisation came over Germany the germanic system of right was destroyed and the romanic sytem had been installed - that is the key and not your non-based SS-knights games...

I could continue for hours but first you need to whipe out this crazy fictional pseudo-historical stuff out of your head.

By the way: the title of a good american book is "The SS - Alibi of a Nation".

Does not give this title a hint?

What about your idea of a running show of a few actors (Hitler, Himmler, Bormann and some others? - that is definitely nothing what that time was about.

But is shows everything about the influence of bad non-based literature which makes people stupid - Gossenschund!

Thorsten,
I will always welcome your valuable input, as you know, I have a deep interest in this area.

I understand what Bob meant when he used the word "kitsch" as almost any American Art Professor of the last 50 years when describing Nazi art in general, would invariably have used the word "Kitsch" to both describe and dismiss this art.
Personally, I believe this was in part a cultural divide between the two nations, and more so, a convenient way to end any troubling discussion on the ideological , philosophical and religious connotations that are imbued within such "Nazi Art" and especially "SS Art."
As one who pored over old articles in America by any professor on Nazi art, I was able to read between the lines and realize it would have been very bad for any professor to have spent much time actually analyzing honestly about such artwork.

For me, when I hear the word "kitsch" I know I will probably love it.

So Thorsten, keep sharing!
Thanks,
MF

[Thorsten B.]

Thank you, Michael!

[Bob Hritz]

Thorsten,

To me 'kitsch' means art for the people that has a hominess. It is not highbrow art or decadent art.

Bob Hritz

[Thorsten B.]

Bob,

Kitsch is here in Germany - and I am quite sure you know that - the typical definition/judgement for really poor and very ugly and unprofessional made art.

And it has ALWAYS been in use when describing especially the different arts of the period of the Third Reich - mainly from left to far left winger historians, or better say pseudo-historians.

The methods of science and doing well-based historical research do have really nothing to do with mixing into this honest and well-based skills of searching for serious answers about historical developments and their keys and reasons the personal own connotations - or better say: prejudices - to the subject or historical period of time which is being examined.

This does not allow a deeper and more clear view onto history - which is indeed the job of historians! - and goes on here in Germany since 1945.

The most evil, helpless and in the end ridiculous argument and behaviour of these "experts" is to blame everybody (especially who passed a serious academic education) who does not share this clueless handling of history and comes to a real objective result in his/her studies being a radical right winger, a admirer of murderers (like Don alias Capt. R. tried to do it here as well) or finally a political danger!

There we go: for political reasons of today (cannot be honest reasons as well - my point of view) the true and honest methods of science are undermined and threatened!

Ironically enough this ruthless behaviour reminds me - just a tiny bit - more to what happened to some honest people being declared as scientific/political enemies in the Third Reich than to any other period of time!

And it leads just nowhere!

But science is there to move on, to open people´s minds, to share infos and results of honest and elaborate work - to develope!

[Michael Fay]

Wie Gemutlich

Thorsten,

To me 'kitsch' means art for the people that has a hominess. It is not highbrow art or decadent art.

Bob Hritz

This is how I understand the word "Gemutlich" to mean. As in "very cosy" and "comfortable" which can typically be said of a nice little cabin in the woods,or a perhaps a carved plaque for that matter.

Michael

[Michael Fay]

Not PC the way most consider it

Bob,

Kitsch is here in Germany - and I am quite sure you know that - the typical definition/judgement for really poor and very ugly and unprofessional made art.

And it has ALWAYS been in use when describing especially the different arts of the period of the Third Reich - mainly from left to far left winger historians, or better say pseudo-historians.

The methods of science and doing well-based historical research do have really nothing to do with mixing into this honest and well-based skills of searching for serious answers about historical developments and their keys and reasons the personal own connotations - or better say: prejudices - to the subject or historical period of time which is being examined.

This does not allow a deeper and more clear view onto history - which is indeed the job of historians! - and goes on here in Germany since 1945.

The most evil, helpless and in the end ridiculous argument and behaviour of these "experts" is to blame everybody (especially who passed a serious academic education) who does not share this clueless handling of history and comes to a real objective result in his/her studies being a radical right winger, a admirer of murderers (like Don alias Capt. R. tried to do it here as well) or finally a political danger!

There we go: for political reasons of today (cannot be honest reasons as well - my point of view) the true and honest methods of science are undermined and threatened!

Ironically enough this ruthless behaviour reminds me - just a tiny bit - more to what happened to some honest people being declared as scientific/political enemies in the Third Reich than to any other period of time!

And it leads just nowhere!

But science is there to move on, to open people´s minds, to share infos and results of honest and elaborate work - to develope!

Thorsten,
I posit that the older Art professors of the late 40's 50s 60s in America were not actually casting aspirsions on nazi art due to being lefties. Not all were left leaning and those that were still may not have dismissed nazi art as kitsch because of their personal politics. To me it is more of the American penchant for the need for zero nuance, a black and white world with only bad and good and a clear line between the two .
As such no American professor was going to plan a long career working on the meanings , philosophy or origins of Third Reich era art. Instead they were going to avoid it like the plague and if they had to talk about it, it had to be devoid of any true artistic merit as ...the nazis were bad.

Couple this with the fact that after the war, America(amongst others) was embroiled in the Cold War, and despite everyone saying these old American professors were leftys....whether they were or were not, many dismissed both the nazi art and the communist art within the same breadth.
It was now dismissed as Totalitarian art.
It was not a career path for art professors to follow by any means.
And as we in America like it black and white...it was all bad.

Michael