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    #16
    Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View Post
    Hello Jim.

    The painting has been in the German Historical Museum in Berlin since 1988.

    According to their records, it was painted in 1940.

    Here's a link.......................

    http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/g0000017/index.html
    Robin,
    here is the original ad from a auction catalogue Herman Historicia maybe ? maybe its another copy of the same painting ? wish I had the full catalogue so I could see the date . In looking at the colors of the painting they even seem strange to me ? You would think it would have been painted in the umber tones ? just a visual opinion based on nothing.........
    jim

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      #17
      Originally posted by Jim Toncar View Post
      Robin,
      here is the original ad from a auction catalogue Herman Historicia maybe ? maybe its another copy of the same painting ? wish I had the full catalogue so I could see the date . In looking at the colors of the painting they even seem strange to me ? You would think it would have been painted in the umber tones ? just a visual opinion based on nothing.........
      jim
      thanks also
      Attached Files

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        #18
        thoughts off the top of my head

        Originally posted by Jim Toncar View Post
        Robin ,
        I have always found this painting "a little Odd" Pohl was known not to have even liked to wear his earned medals and had to be told by Himmler to do and here we see him all dressed up as a medieval knight just seems to have ring of fantasy to it , I would sure like to know the province of this painting ? Can you shed any light on it ? I remember it selling in one of the European auction house perhaps 10 years ago ?????
        jim
        Some thoughts off the top of my head.
        If Pohl was reticent to show off, and Himmler admonished him to do so...as with medals, it is logical to theorize that this painting of Pohl as a knight could not have been Pohl's idea at all. It could have been commisioned by someone else, even Himmler himself , perhaps. And when done presented to the chagrined Pohl.

        Also, it was Himmler pushing the ideas of these SS knights being knights of the Heilige Gral. ---YES?
        And this Holy Grail of the SS RitterOrden was not exactly the "Christian" Grail. It was to be pagan Gotglaubig and if at all "Christian" it would have been a very heterodox (heretical) version as evinced by Himmler's sponsorship of the Albigensian Gral researcher Otto Rahn.

        So a blue suffused light about the Gral Ritter von Pohl is very applicable as blue is the god Wotan's (Odin All Father of the Gods) traditional color as believed by the Neuheidnischen(New Pagans) of the early 20th century in Germany.
        Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-25-2009, 06:13 PM. Reason: translate obscure terms

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          #19
          Originally posted by JoeW View Post
          Sorry, to be a bit late to read this thread.

          I don't believe that this piece can be associated with the style of coat of arms Himmler wished to be prepared for his generals. The published photos of coats of arms of Pohl and Keppler show something more akin to the English style of coat of arms with shield, helmet and crest, though Keppler's seems only a partially finished wooden rendition of the shield.* I have seen an unpublished photo of another general's arms that is unusual in that the helmet was replaced with a full figure.

          Though Diebitsch was commissioned to design the arms, Weisthor was involved in the written interpretations.

          *"Heinrich Himmler's Camelot" by Stephen Cook and Stuart Russell
          Hello Joe,
          thanks for utilizing the "SEARCH" button and finding this ancient thread.
          A thought that comes to mind off the top of my head is that Wiligut did a whole lot of work on esoteric runic letters and what they represented....as you say written interpretations. So as far as that goes, I see no reason to dismiss at least the possibility of such a personage having been involved in that old plaque's creation. Especially if attributable to Wewelsburg or its environs.
          I realize that you are not argueing this point, but I am just thinking about or around what you said.
          Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-25-2009, 06:56 PM. Reason: make it better

          Comment

            #20
            runics

            Originally posted by Michael Fay View Post
            Hello Joe,
            thanks for utilizing the "SEARCH" button and finding this ancient thread.
            A thought that comes to mind off the top of my head is that Wiligut did a whole lot of work on esoteric runic letters and what they represented....as you say written interpretations. So as far as that goes, I see no reason to dismiss at least the possibility of such a personage having been involved in that old plaque's creation. Especially if attributable to Wewelsburg or its environs.
            I realize that you are not argueing this point, but I am just thinking about or around what you said.
            Michael those are some very interesting thoughts in your last two posts and certainly believable.
            jim
            Attached Files

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              #21
              Based on the book A Practical Guide to The Runes (Their Uses in Divination and Magick) 1989 by Lisa Peschel:

              The "S" is called the Sigel (Sig) Rune and is "one of the great runes of victory."

              The "P" rune is called the Wunjo Rune, which means "joy or happiness coming into your life."

              The author also mentions the intertwining of runes to "strengthen their great power".

              Just off the cuff, the plaques meaning to me would be;

              The Third Reich or German Empire (Symbolized by the Helmet and Dagger) will face much Joy (Wunjo Rune) through Victory (Siegel Rune) as the waves of a new age (Waves at the bottom of the plaque) spread throughout the world.

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Carson View Post
                Based on the book A Practical Guide to The Runes (Their Uses in Divination and Magick) 1989 by Lisa Peschel:

                The "S" is called the Sigel (Sig) Rune and is "one of the great runes of victory."

                The "P" rune is called the Wunjo Rune, which means "joy or happiness coming into your life."

                The author also mentions the intertwining of runes to "strengthen their great power".

                Just off the cuff, the plaques meaning to me would be;

                The Third Reich or German Empire (Symbolized by the Helmet and Dagger) will face much Joy (Wunjo Rune) through Victory (Siegel Rune) as the waves of a new age (Waves at the bottom of the plaque) spread throughout the world.
                Carson,
                I am not familiar with Ms.Peschel's book (by the way, I appreciate how you and others are all giving sources, if only everyone else did too)

                but she was correct about her runes. The combining of 2 or more runes is a ligature. Commonly known as a bind-rune in religious circles. Please take a look at my very first post in this thread .
                But it is youre interpretation that I wanted to comment on as it is really quite feasable.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jim Toncar View Post
                  Michael those are some very interesting thoughts in your last two posts and certainly believable.
                  jim

                  Appreciate that, Jim
                  And I appreciate that book too.....
                  think I will take some photos of various and sundry old musty books and pamphlets later tonight to elucidate some of my theories as previously posited as to heraldry and runes.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Michael Fay View Post
                    Hello Joe,
                    thanks for utilizing the "SEARCH" button and finding this ancient thread.
                    A thought that comes to mind off the top of my head is that Wiligut did a whole lot of work on esoteric runic letters and what they represented....as you say written interpretations. So as far as that goes, I see no reason to dismiss at least the possibility of such a personage having been involved in that old plaque's creation. Especially if attributable to Wewelsburg or its environs.
                    I realize that you are not argueing this point, but I am just thinking about or around what you said.
                    I must admit that the Pohl painting always reminds me of one of the "digitized" characters from the 1982 movie TRON.

                    Michael, it always a pleasure to find and reactivate stimulating intellectual discussion.

                    When I wrote "Though Diebitsch was commissioned to design the arms, Weisthor was involved in the written interpretations.", I meant that in the unpublished material I viewed, the coat of arms was accompanied by an interpretation provided by Weisthor that included runic association of the phonetic sounds of the owner's name. I certainly agree that Weisthor did research in runic interpretation and history.

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Originally posted by JoeW View Post
                      I must admit that the Pohl painting always reminds me of one of the "digitized" characters from the 1982 movie TRON.

                      Michael, it always a pleasure to find and reactivate stimulating intellectual discussion.

                      When I wrote "Though Diebitsch was commissioned to design the arms, Weisthor was involved in the written interpretations.", I meant that in the unpublished material I viewed, the coat of arms was accompanied by an interpretation provided by Weisthor that included runic association of the phonetic sounds of the owner's name. I certainly agree that Weisthor did research in runic interpretation and history.
                      Tron...was that 1982? seems like yesterday i was impressed with those (now woefully inadequate) special effects.
                      but you are spot on and droll.

                      So Wiligut chose the runes with care, and Diebitsch made them so.
                      I think we are both saying the same thing in different ways.

                      And I noticed you had access to unpublished Wiligut material, this is of interest.

                      Anyway I have a little book from the TR era on heraldry and though, it does not prove anything, it is salient to my old plaque.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-26-2009, 02:50 AM.

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                        #26
                        As you can see it is indeed of the correct era and on Heraldry/ WappenKunde
                        Attached Files

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                          #27
                          And it has examples of very upperclass looking Wappenkunde very similar to the illustrated example of Oswald Pohl's "Wappenschild as shown on page 196 of "...Himler's Camelot"

                          Also notice those Eihar runes on the heraldic shields
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-26-2009, 02:35 AM. Reason: eihar runes

                          Comment

                            #28
                            but then it shows other less fancy forms of alt military headwear.

                            This lends itself to my thought that the plaque's Stahlhelm is perfectly acceptable as a Ritter's Helm, especially if such an SS Ritter was an Alt-Kampfer, Freikorp, and or WWI veteran.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-26-2009, 02:53 AM.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Also of interest is that different shield shapes are utilized to import specific meanings.

                              Which could help explain the shield shapes discrepancy between my old plaque.
                              Not to mention the discrepancies between the 2 images said to be Pohl's Wappenschild in "...Himmler's Camlot..."
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Just because it may be of interest if not also,pertinant to this old plaque:
                                I also show this nice bit on the relation of Heraldry and Housemarks in the use of runic motifs.
                                Especially notice the Bind-Runes
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by Michael Fay; 05-26-2009, 02:53 AM. Reason: : bind runes

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