Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine/Imperial/Bundesmarine Cap Tallies

[CSForrester]

Just for Norm about the correct spelling of Cellon or Celleon .....
This should be clear. Just an offer for technical use for isolation or electrical material and other use, for example protection of naval maps agains water ...
Weyers Taschenbuch der Kriegsflotten 1940.

Regars
Markus Bodeux

[Norm F]

origins of Cellon

On the origins of Cellon, which is a patented industry-produced soluble form of cellulose acetate (from "War and Economic Development by David Joslin and J. M. Winter, 1976):

[CSForrester]

Sorry for my English, maybe that is the reason for the confusion about the timeline. I will try to make these points clear:

-The Kriegsmarine officialy ordered and received cap tallies until mid 1938 only with letters from metal wire

-The Kriegsmarine officialy ordered from mid 1938 until the end of war only ribbons with the word Kriegsmarine with letters from cotton/artificial silk In the Marineverordnungsblatt and Bekleidungsbestimmungen they used the word Kunstseide.

Cap tallies could be bought in navy shops or canteens in the naval stations at any time before and during the war. They were woven with metal thread letters during the war and also with letters from cellon Also "Kriegsmarine" was sold after September 1939 with metal thread or cellon letters.

So if you see a photo of a sailor wearing his ship named tally it can be pre-war or during the war and he has fitted the tally only for the pic. Wearing in public was forbidden. Not wearing of cellon or metal thread was forbidden, wearing of the ship's name the cause. It could be a tally he has bought during the war and it could be his old official tally from pre-war-times.

Of course Kreuzer Prinz Eugen was produced during the war with letters from cellon and also metal thread as I have seen both. But they were not officially supplied by the Navy and the Navy had no ribbons in stock to give them out after the end of war.

I hope this makes it more clear.

Markus

[CSForrester]

About Kreuzer Prinz Eugen.

The ship left Copenhagen on May 26 1945 and was in Wilhelmshaven until December 1945, some hundred meters far from the Marinebekleidungsamt. 7 months with best chance to get tallies for the crew, but if we read Schmalenbachs (I.AO on Prinz Eugen) book nothing in this matter happend. Just the message that this ship will set the U.S. flag in first days of 1946 brought KzS Reinicke to the idea to organize tallies with the name Kreuzer Prinz Eugen for the crew and to bring back the old flag pole which was given from board after commision into service.

Prinz Eugen left Bremerhaven on January 13, so she had just a week to organize the tallies! Producers were in Krefeld, Wuppertal, Weissenburg ..... at least a minimum distance of 300km. Impossible to get 200 or 300 woven tallies in that situation in January 1946 in Germany. But possible to get them printed from local hatmakers or other professions.

Best regards

Markus

[Norm F]

open to the public?

Cap tallies could be bought in navy shops or cantens in the naval stations at any time before and during the war. They were woven with metal thread letters, during the war also with letters from Cellon, also "Kriegsmarine" was sold after September 1939 with metal thread or Cellon letters.

Best regards
Markus

One last question on this. Could only Navy personnel purchase these "non-regulation" tallies in the Navy shops or Canteens, or could anyone from the general public walk in and buy them?

Best regards,
---Norm

[CSForrester]

I dont know it for 100%. Maybe one dealer was happy about every Reichsmark he could earn, maybe others were more "prussian" correctly and sold only to personnel of the Kriegsmarine. But i think that makes no significant difference. I guess no Helmut W. went 1944 in a shop in Kiel and bought 200xSchlachtschiff Tirpitz .........

Here a nice example for an order to form the permanent staff of a warship. Gneisenau was committed into service on May 21, 1938 and the crew was collected in Kiel in March 1938. 2 months before they still had to wear the cap tally 2.Schiffsstammabteilung der Ostsee. 2.

Regards

Markus

[CSForrester]

...and when you read this, Ostseestationstagesbefehl october 29th 1936, I have to ask if someone really believes that the Kriegsmarine ever officialy ordered tallies for Gneisenau with letters from metal thread ?

Regards

Markus

[JustinG]

Thanks and some questions?

These postings are very interesting... They describe quite well the tallies and their construction and issuance.

So, in a previous posting, you stated that zerst. Anton Schmitt was the last surface vessel to have the tallies made before the KM ban and for the conversion to the Kriegsmarine tally for all. So, did they have the metal wire available or by that time, was the cellion the option? I am not too clear on this timeline as posted . It seems that the ordnance came in effect before the need to watch material costs/resources was at a critical level to deprive the Tally manufacturing? So a sailor before 1942 could have the options of what ever construction available at the time and stock at hand?

Another question, theory.....?
Seeing the difference in the coloring, (new in both metal and cellon) I would have thought befor the order to ban named unit tallies to be worn in public, a captain or designated CO would have decreed that all members have the same style of cap tally. ( a more uniform look) ?
Could this be a case?

Regards, and once again, this is very interesting and valuable information.

Regards,
JustinG

[CSForrester]

The order above says clearly that all tallies that were ordered from October 1936 forwards had to be woven with letters from artificial silk. No metal, no cellon. That was never changed until the end of war because these tallies were the cheapest and longest lasting tallies.

My information is that in summer 1938 all tallies with letters from metal thread were out of stock in both Marinebekleidungsamt.

There were still those tallies with other materials and overlength produced for sale by private purchase.

So we have had a mixture in the units and generelly it was not forbidden to wear letters from other materials. But from my experience in the Federal German Navy it was for recruits and younger sailors in the first period of training forbidden by the unit commanders, often on level of company, to wear "better" tallies, they had to wear the official variant from Kunstseide. When they left the Schiffstammabteilungen and schools to their designated unit this rule was less stingently enforced.

Regards
Markus

[Jeff V]

Hi Markus, Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps because of language difficulties I misread the post from the earlier thread.

thanks,

Jeff

[John R.]

I guess no Helmut W. went 1944 in a shop in Kiel and bought 200 x Schlachtschiff Tirpitz .........

Very good one Markus!!!

I do look forward to your book to see the example you have. No doubt in my mind at least a few were produced, maybe many more. No way to know due to the fate of that ship.

John

[Norm F]

translation of original order

...and when you read this, Ostseestationstagesbefehl october 29th 1936, I have to ask if someone really believes that the Kriegsmarine ever officialy ordered tallies for Gneisenau with letters from metal thread ?

Regards

Markus

Here's my crude translation of the original kindly provided by Markus, after much slogging with a dictionary!

"7. Cap Talleys out of artificial silk with artificial silk inscription.
For the sparing of currency and raw materials, after the exhaustion of former cap talleys, those made out of artificial silk with artificial silk inscriptions like the supplied sample by the Navy Management, Kiel, will be introduced.
By Oct 1, 1937, the Navy Management in agreement with the military agencies, will report whether the cap talleys prove themselves, and, if applicable, which proposed alterations - for example regarding the wearing time - to provide.
Addendum of the Station Command:
The Navy Clothing Depot (Marine Belkeidungsamt), after exhausting the inventory of former cap talleys, will stock the Navy parts only with artificial silk ribbons. The subordinate departments will share with the Marine Bekleidungsamt, until Sep 1, 1937, whether the artificial silk cap talleys have proven themselves.
(D R M [Deutsche Reich Marine? B[efehl, i.e. Command] Nr. 5921 C VI from Oct 13, 1936). St.O. [Station Ost?, i.e. East or Baltic Station] 17680 V"

Regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Thanks Norm. John

[CSForrester]

Hi Markus, Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps because of language difficulties I misread the post from the earlier thread.

thanks,

Jeff

I think thats it, it is hard to describe the circumstances in english and also to have all sources present in my small brain. The officialy ordered and distributed tallies should become no big problem, but i am afraid we have still a "hard nut" with the inofficials, there are no sources available at the moment.
Tomorrow i am "pharmacist of the watch" in our town and i will have a lot of time to read the "Uniformen-Markt", have it complete until 1945, perhaps i will find a hint ..........

Regards
Markus

[John R.]

Keywords: tally, tallie, tallys, tallies

John