Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine/Imperial/Bundesmarine Cap Tallies

[pantherv]

....

Quick question.....I take it there's no such Tally from the Tirpitz.

Peter

[JustinG]

Wow, Thanks for such a detailed posting. The photos showed your point nicely.
Thank you for contributing this information.
With this information, can you tell us which producers had the rights under the regulations to produce these tallies, as well as a number of companies?

My understanding is that sailors could before the Kriegsmarine tally issuance and ban for individual ship/unit tallies, that they could purchase any tally they wanted from a unit even though, they weren't assigned?

"When the tallies received from the producer in Wilhelmshaven or Kiel they were checked and packed in small paper envelopes to 10 tallies each and sealed with a paper seal and taken into the inventory of the Marinebekleidungsamt. Then it was necessary for the new formed staff to order a concret number of tallies from the Marinebekleidungsamt."

So, I interpret this being that my original assumption/understanding is incorrect?


This is fascinating! I appreciate the wealth of knowledge and expertise being shared.

Very interesting.

Regards,
JustinG

[JustinG]

Everything I have been told is that the Tirpitz, Bismark, or Zeppelin had no tallies issued.

John Robinson posted this information earlier on in the thread.

Regards,
JustinG

[Norm F]

Is cellon celleon?

Excellent photo provided.

Then we are at the original assumption of three threads and I am repeating it here just so as not to confuse the other viewers.

Three materials for the letters:

1. Cotton (artificial silk) (baumwoll)

2. Cellon

3. Gold wire (goldener metall)

Two basic materials for the black tally itself. Certainly the cotton thread tallies have much lighter and more delicate "black" tally material compared to the stiffer material used with cellon or gold wire. Or if not different material, different treated material.

John

Just so I can be clear, is "Cellon" as used here the same thing as "Celleon", which is constructed from a central core thread wrapped in a thin spiral winding of cellophane, creating a shiny cord with an almost metallic sheen? (Known in German as Cellophan as well.)
If so, when Markus says it wasn't used before 1943/44, I assume he means specifically for Talleys, since Celleon was used for several years before that in other insignia. Or am I mis-interpreting the term "Cellon"?
Regards,
---Norm

[CSForrester]

@Norm:
Your interpetation is correct. It was no problem using Cellon for handstiched insigna, so it was used early to replace genuine metal thread. In the Kriegsmarine breast- and cap-eagles, sleevebadges aso for officers were made from Cellon.
It was never officialy used for cap tallies, the Kriegsmarine used cotton until the end of the war. Cellon was used by an unknown producer to make tallies for private purchase.
Everyone could buy tallies in one of the many navy-shops in Kiel, Wilhelmshaven, Flensburg ...........
The tallies for private purchase were against regulations woven with metal thread because the cotton was not beloved by the sailors and they were longer. It was modern to wear on sunday long tallies on the back, but is was forbidden an i can remember when i was a recruit in 1979 in Eckernförde, we had to turn 180 degrees and our Maat checked the length of the tallies.
I knew the names and location of four or five producers beside Neiss in Krefeld, but i have to hold something back for the book...... later more.
I will add two quick shots of tallies from a stock of old navy shop i Wilhelmshaven i could buy some years ago. They are bundled to ten and then packed in cardbord-boxes to 50. I think they come from two different producers.
Regards
Markus

[CSForrester]

U=Bootsbegleitschiff Saar, bundled in the box.

[Norm F]

Thanks!

@Norm:
Your interpetation is correct. It was no problem using Cellon for handstiched insigna, so it was used early to replace genuine metal thread. In the Kriegsmarine breast- and cap-eagles, sleevebadges aso for officers were made from Cellon.
It was never officialy used for cap tallies, the Kriegsmarine used cotton until the end of the war. Cellon was used by an unknown producer to make tallies for private purchase.
Everyone could buy tallies in one of the many navy-shops in Kiel, Wilhelmshaven, Flensburg ...........
The tallies for private purchase were against regulations woven with metal thread because the cotton was not beloved by the sailors and they were longer. It was modern to wear on sunday long tallies on the back, but is was forbidden an i can remember when i was a recruit in 1979 in Eckernförde, we had to turn 180 degrees and our Maat checked the length of the tallies.
I knew the names and location of four or five producers beside Neiss in Krefeld, but i have to hold something back for the book...... later more.
I will add two quick shots of tallies from a stock of old navy shop i Wilhelmshaven i could buy some years ago. They are bundled to ten and then packed in cardbord-boxes to 50. I think they come from two different producers.
Regards
Markus

Wow! Fascinating pictures. And great info there about the private purchase nature of Celleon talleys - like a teaser trailer for a movie! I can't wait for the book to come out!
Final question on "Cellon". The spelling "Celleon" appears most commonly in books and internet sources, but I haven't seen the spelling "Cellon". (We had some discussion on Celleon at http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=346530).
Which term is more commonly used in Germany?

Regards,
---Norm

[Jeff V]

Thanks John,

you are right, it took a long time until summer 1940 until all units were complete supplied with the new "Kriegsmarine". But it was forbidden to produce any other tallies in that time.
But with yellow artificial silk - i do not mean Cellon ! The yellow artificial silk was used since 1938 for all official ordered tallies and it is a kind of regenerated viskose to replace genuine silk. Cellon is a synthetic material from the base of petroleum or fluished gas from coal like Perlon, Nylon .......
Cellon did not appear before 1943/1944 and has a metallic glitter. It was never used for official ordered tallies. Examples will follow.

Thanks and regards
Markus

I have to disagree with this opinion. Cellon was clearly used in tally production way before 1943. If your theory is correct how do you explain the many, many other named ship tallies in existence made out of cellon, the same material as the Eugen tally? According to your view the only cellon tallies in existance should be Kriegsmarine, since cellon was not used until 43 in tally production, obviously this is not the case.

I have seen an over reliance on the documents of the time when it comes to badges, RKs and cloth items. These regulations definately do not seem to be followed to the letter by the manufacturers, and in my opinion a little common sense has to be applied when reading these documents.

As far as the printed Eugen tally goes it looks like something made after the war. Did your letter with the commanding officer of the Eugen mention why he decided to have made up printed tallies as well as the standard cellon type?
best wishes,
jeff

[kirk]

Thank you guy. I like a lot to see another KM tallyribons collector. Sometimes I think I´m alone.
Take a look to my collection.
Regards
Greg

Nice collection!

[CSForrester]

Kriegsmarine Cap Tallies - Part 2

As requested by John Robinson, I will start a new thread to discuss the fundamental knowledge about the cap ribbons of the German Kriegsmarine.

I will open it with a short comprehensive statement of my knowledge, so short as can be …..

1. Cap ribbons officialy ordered by the Kriegsmarine / Marinebekleidungsamt

After the years of confusion between 1919 and 1924 the Reichsmarineamt released in 1924 detailed and concrete orders how the designation of ships and units on cap ribbons had to be. These orders included length, width, material of ribbon, letters and the correct spelling of the designation even down to the existence of a point or not.

For example the third point for numbered units was obligated for every cap ribbon that was delivered by the manufacturer to the Kriegsmarine. This means for example:

1. MINENSUCHFLOTTILLE. I. (note the three points or periods)

Material for the ribbon was artificial silk and for the letters metal thread (with a high content of silver) with a core of cotton. Length was 116cm, width 3,2cm.

Between 1927 and 1929 a small civil organisation, the “Bund für Deutsche Schrift”, had very emotional correspondence with the Reichsmarineamt to change the Roman letters on the cap ribbons to German “gothic” letters. At last the Reichsmarineamt agreed and in 1930 the German letters were introduced for all cap ribbons. The older tallies, still in stock, had to be worn in garrison service until they went out, but were not allowed to be worn in public. (complete corespondence is still present in the Bundesarchiv Freiburg).

In 1938 the next change was the material of ribbon and letters. To increase the production and to save money and materials were the reasons. Published in the Marineverordnungsblatt during the summer of 1938 all cap ribbons ordered from that date on had to be woven with letters from cotton thread, “Perlgarn”, an artificial silk. The black ribbon itself became a little bit elastic.

In September 1939 all unit designations and ship names on cap ribbons were forbidden for the time of war. After this order there were no changes in material, dimensions or designation until the end or World War II.

2. Cap ribbons produced for private purchase

Since the introduction of Jacquard-weaving machines in the 1870-years cap ribbons could be produced industrially. Since this time it was usual to produce, besides the ribbons ordered by the Navy, cap ribbons for private purchase. That was tolerated by the Imperial German Navy as well as by the Reichs- and Kriegsmarine. The cap ribbons delivered to the Navy were under a strict control of quality, each lot that arrived in Kiel or Wilhelmshaven was opened and compared with a sealed specimen. Any difference in material, dimensions or spelling and they were returned to the manufacturer. The two Marinebekleidungsamts were giant bureaucratic apparats with more than 1000 employes each in the 1930 years.

Cap ribbons for private purchase could otherwise differ in all points. In hard times, like the 1920s, the manufacturers used metal thread with more copper and less silver, so the letters oxidized to green, not to red/black like the official ribbons. The cap ribbons for private purchase were usually longer since the sailors wanted longer tails hanging down on the back. When the official material for the letters changed to cotton in 1938 the ribbons for private purchase were still produced with metal thread. The yellow cotton letters were not beloved by the sailors, they wanted to wear “gold”.

In Word War II. the whole production was under control of the DAF German Labour Front and they controlled the availability of material and capacity of machines and workers. The lack of copper and silver lead to the use of Cellon instead during the war; I cannot say exactly if it was 1942, 1943 or 1944. A process we can compare for example with the change from tombak/brass to zinc for decorations.

Before World War II the complete range of cap ribbons was available from navy shops but the production during was limited. With letters from Cellon we normally find most in bigger fighting ships and destroyers; rare are smaller units or land based formations. I have seen one Schlachtschiff Tirpitz made with letters from Cellon, never Bismarck or Graf Zeppelin. In the case of Graf Zeppelin I think it was prohibited by the OKM to produce them before the ship was in active service – which never happended.

Please feel free to discuss any aspect in this thread.

Markus Bodeux

Additional picture: pricelist of Herzog in Wilhelmshaven-Rüstringen offering cap ribbons for all ships and units in the Kriegsmarine for 1,- RM in 1935/36.

[Hirschstein]

Markus

please allow me to thank you for your wonderful pre-explanation of the Tallies

question from a non-expert but when would the private-purchase Metall lettered Tallies be allowed to be worn.... ? parade or ?

many thanks again for your input here and in the other thread covering a very interesting subject matter

Erich ~

[Jeff V]

Why would we see any named ship tallies in cellon if per the regulations they were all to be Kriegsmarine, and the use of cellon was not permitted until around 1943? Is it your opinion that every named ship tally in cellon is a post war creation?
best wishes,
jeff

[John R.]

I just want to clarify a point in the post by Markus. He is stating that all cellon tallies were produced after 1942 or so.

He is also saying that while many named tallies are in cellon, they were not allowed for wear, although they were allowed to be bought by the sailors, explaining why so many cellon tallies exist that are named.

This means that all tallies of cellon, according to Markus, are post 1942, named or not. Naturally, all tallies that say "kriegsmaine" in cellon would therefore be post 1942 or whatever the actual date was of this new material. When I say post, according to Markus this would mean 1942-1945, but not post war.

There is the issue of Prinz Eugen, but this is an exception according to Markus I believe. Again, the Prinz Eugen tally, made during the war or just after the war, is still open for discussion by the members of this forum. I do not want to put words into the mouth of Markus, but this is my take on his post.

John

[John R.]

If what Markus is stating is correct, then all photos of sailors wearing named ship tallies are subject to a problem in dating. In other words, before we assumed all photos with a named tally would be pre-war.

It is possible now that the photo is wartime and that the sailor simply went to have his photo taken in a studio with a named tally he may have bought after the start of the war, including cellon tallies after 1942 or so.

Again, I am just making a comment and not taking a positon since the purpose of these threads are educational and meant for discussion.

[Jeff V]

I just want to clarify a point in the post by Markus. He is stating that all cellon tallies were produced after 1942 or so.

He is also saying that while many named tallies are in cellon, they were not allowed for wear, although they were allowed to be bought by the sailors, explaining why so many cellon tallies exist that are named.

This means that all tallies of cellon, according to Markus, are post 1942, named or not. Naturally, all tallies that say "kriegsmarine" in cellon would therefore be post 1942 or whatever the actual date was of this new material. When I say post, according to Markus this would mean 1942-1945, but not post war.

There is the issue of Prinz Eugen, but this is an exception according to Markus I believe. Again, the Prinz Eugen tally, made during the war or just after the war, is still open for discussion by the members of this forum. I do not want to put words into the mouth of Markus, but this is my take on his post.

John

Why on earth, if all the named heavy ships cellon tallies were available for private purchase during the war, would the Eugen tally be any different? It seems to me that Markus just proved the cellon Eugen tally is a wartime example. The idea that this ship would somehow be an "exception" I find completely illogical.
best wishes,
jeff