My new DAK helmets

[Mr. Hollywood]

I would place my money on DougB and Deathshead any day of the week when it comes to SS helmets. The guys knows thier stuff and DougB has the collection to prove it.

Nick please answer his questions directly.

Well said Doug!!!

[NickG]

NIck you can show the entire Czech population in SS Saharias and boots. None of it has anything to do with helmets. None of it connects any dots to factory tan German (SS) helmets. None of it. Honestly I feel like we are constantly shown clothing and post war reenactor photos over and over and over again and that it is a fait accompli. We are being subjected to the Chinese water torture test, of postwar clothing pictures and modern reenactor images, and being told see, see, "maybe", "probably", "could be", "possibly".

It is time to get serious and get off that merry go round.

QVL helmets. Please.

2 colors of tan paint. Please.

Mystery domestamp. Please.

The questions continue to go unanswered that simply debunk your theory.

Have you read the 2 volume divisional history In Good Faith, on SS Polizei? Does it say anything in there about a mass equipment exchange in Cz for Greek occupation duties?

With respect

Doug

I have the photo book In Good Faith Little on tropical. Just sharing post war use of SS tropical uniforms that were found in abundance where the helmets came from...yes a loose connection or coincidence...but again perhaps these lids exist in this color
because of (postwar) refurbished for these border guard troops, DRESSED IN TAN, which answers the QVL question! Late war helmet refurbished for borderguards use...but perhaps they rejected these...too German looking ? as i have found no images thus far.
Any Czech members may provide answers?

So gear in general COULD matter and provide clues for the helmets...(matching color etc..)
but I dont know...I was not there...nobody participating was...we are just investigating ALL options! (outside of US originating dealer fables)


- QVL helmets. = late war so perhaps for these borderguards post war???? (so post war refurbished after all?
or a larger war time (DunkelGelb) contract extending into 1944-45?...post Polizei Div deployment in Greece). Simple!

- 2 colors of tan paint. = Various batches of paint used...ersatz materials..etc..different batches used! Simple!

- Mystery domestamp. = remains a mystery...but owners claim they were not messed with...= smoking gun? so real or outright fake..
Who knows? Why try to attempt and make a tainted helmet "real" with an added bogus dome stamp you may wonder? It has 2 decades plus of negative PR...
Can we prove without a doubt that these dome stamps are bogus?

[90th Light]

>>Thus I have as much proof that Israel was not interested in buying German WW2 helmets in 1948 as you have proof that they wanted to. <<

That is my point. You have no proof. Neither do I. I never said I did. But you and Nick carry on like you do and it is now near-factual that these are German (SS) helmets. There is even a poll...

>>However if you can bring something objective in the form of direct proof then please do so. <<

I have tried to be as objective as you and NIck but only your opinions and thin evidence if you want to call it that, matters. Still, no explanation for qvl helmets, no explanation for 2 coats of two different coats of tan paint and a mystery domestamp. Still, no reply on that but for asking 4 times. No response.

>>I am not going to debate the horror of the Holocaust on this thread. Except to say that when I say "One can only imagine the horror", it certainly is not based on any Hollywood movie. It is based on what real people who really had to face it told me. I can only quote my father, "when you have seen how low people can go, you never want to remember that again as long as you live" <<

Your the one who brought it up and as you say above, it is based on your opinion and it is emotionally driven statement as Hollywood is regardless what your father saw. Emotionally charged argumenets have no place in this discussion and your opinion on them matters not, sorry.

>>The WW2 theory & possible SS connection has more direct & circumstantial evidence than any other at this stage.<<

In your opinion, again you and Nick are setting the agenda and using evidence to suit it. Qvl helmets. Please. Unexplainable domestamps. Please. And 2 coats of paint. Please. No orders. No nothing other than some BW images that show nothing to prove your theory.

Feel free to believe in the theory. I am open to it, but you guys have successfully derailed the thread from a theoretical discussion to that of controlling the agenda, controlling what is a fact and what is plausible.

>>But hey if you or someone else can bring some post war facts to the table then that would be great and hopefully you will solve the puzzle for us all, <<

Chris, its not my theory to debunk. Its your guys theory to prove.

Cheers and with respect

Doug

Doug,

The circumstance is there. These helmets were found in the same part of the CZ as an SS depot for issuing tropical uniforms. This helmet stock pile was found with stock piles of other tropical uniforms and SS tropical clothing. This fact is not a possibility, it is a definite discovery.

I am not commenting on the qvl helmets, dome stamps or 2 coats of what ever until I get the time to dig my stuff out. Unlike some people in this debate, I actually have veteran brought back items painted that RAL colour. I also have late war helmets from another over-run store in 1945. They are a very dark green colour but it will be interesting to compare the characteristics

I can a sure you, my comments about the Holocaust are not based solely on emotion alone. Sadly they are based on real experience shared by a generation ahead of me. I am lucky to have been born when I was and that it was not me. Also I have seen first hand the reaction of this generation to German flags, uniforms and headgear. It was not a good reaction to put it mildly.

I repeat again, the WW2 case and a possible SS connection has the most direct, circumstantial and photographic evidence emerging so far. And again I repeat, if anyone can produce post war evidence then I am prepared to reconsider my viewpoint.

Also I am looking forward to what my stuff might reveal about some of the production idiosyncrasies when I get to them,

Chris

[Mr. Hollywood]

Doug,

The circumstance is there. These helmets were found in the same part of the CZ as an SS depot for issuing tropical uniforms. This helmet stock pile was found with stock piles of other tropical uniforms and SS tropical clothing. This fact is not a possibility, it is a definite discovery.
Chris

How do you know this is "fact"? It has been rumored to have been in the "same location" as other items. There is nothing concrete that proves the location of where these helmets originate from.

If I missed the FACTUAL part please re-post it. Proper documentation of the actual where house and its SS affiliation is required. Thus far I dont recall reading anything that factually supports the proposed theory.

A proper checks & balance system should be in place PRIOR to posting.

As proven with Aries many posts ago....he had a motive to start this thread, and I believe that was to sell helmets. Nothing more really needs to be said, as this thread is nothing more than fluff to that end alone.

[dragnet]

[QUOTE=DougB;6735001]NIck you can show the entire Czech population in SS Saharias and boots. None of it has anything to do with helmets. None of it connects any dots to factory tan German (SS) helmets. None of it. Honestly I feel like we are constantly shown clothing and post war reenactor photos over and over and over again and that it is a fait accompli. We are being subjected to the Chinese water torture test, of postwar clothing pictures and modern reenactor images, and being told see, see, "maybe", "probably", "could be", "possibly".




Ive found this topic very interesting but i must admit that posting photos of SS clothing in use by the Czech resistance is not adding anything more to the topic , I do hope more info can be found on the helmets that stated the thread

[DougB]

Doug,

The circumstance is there. These helmets were found in the same part of the CZ as an SS depot for issuing tropical uniforms. This helmet stock pile was found with stock piles of other tropical uniforms and SS tropical clothing. This fact is not a possibility, it is a definite discovery.

I am not commenting on the qvl helmets, dome stamps or 2 coats of what ever until I get the time to dig my stuff out. Unlike some people in this debate, I actually have veteran brought back items painted that RAL colour. I also have late war helmets from another over-run store in 1945. They are a very dark green colour but it will be interesting to compare the characteristics

I can a sure you, my comments about the Holocaust are not based solely on emotion alone. Sadly they are based on real experience shared by a generation ahead of me. I am lucky to have been born when I was and that it was not me. Also I have seen first hand the reaction of this generation to German flags, uniforms and headgear. It was not a good reaction to put it mildly.

I repeat again, the WW2 case and a possible SS connection has the most direct, circumstantial and photographic evidence emerging so far. And again I repeat, if anyone can produce post war evidence then I am prepared to reconsider my viewpoint.

Also I am looking forward to what my stuff might reveal about some of the production idiosyncrasies when I get to them,

Chris

Chris with respect then you do have a dog in this to prove these are SS helmets. That alone casts theory into doubt as you will bend whatever evidence you find as factual and supporting your desired outcome to the theory. That is not open research I am afraid.

There is no "fact" or "discovery" that supports these as being German or SS.

Your comments on if the Israelis would or would not wear German helmets are your opinion and are purely emotive. Your subjective viewpoint on the Israeli governments stance, based on your emotional viewpoint of the subject matter. Hardly scientific or factual.

But then facts are being called facts without them actually being facts in this thread.

Hearsay based evidence that these were depot found with SS clothing. Hearsay based evidence that these were seen with the Star of David on them for sale in the 60s in NYC. Israel bought German weapons and planes and contracted to train their paratroops in Czechoslovakia in 1948. But they refuse to wear a German helmet because you say they "would have been" upset. Nevermind using guns that bore the mark of the genocide. Again, whatever works to make this real?

I would suggest you both join GHW2 and read the same thread on this subject matter where a Czech member just posted these same helmets, underneath the refurb tan paint are markings of Czech military. That sort of blows the old SS theory right out of the water one would think but I am sure you guys will find something to make that nonexistant.

So now on top of explaining QVL helmets, 2 colors of factory tan paint, mystery domestamps, you now have to explain those helmets and his knowledge of them as being postwar Czech refurbs. And if the Czechs refurbed them not for their miltary, then whose?

Like I said, I am not pro or con here. But if your going to try to prove something it has to be credible and despite your opinion that it is, to me and many others thus far I am afraid is not.

Cheers and again with respect,

Doug

[anmarlodz]

How do you know this is "fact"? It has been rumored to have been in the "same location" as other items. There is nothing concrete that proves the location of where these helmets originate from.

If I missed the FACTUAL part please re-post it. Proper documentation of the actual where house and its SS affiliation is required. Thus far I dont recall reading anything that factually supports the proposed theory.

A proper checks & balance system should be in place PRIOR to posting.

As proven with Aries many posts ago....he had a motive to start this thread, and I believe that was to sell helmets. Nothing more really needs to be said, as this thread is nothing more than fluff to that end alone.

I see you didn't read it carefuly or didn't understand it correctly (probably caused by not the best language skills of the guy who first post in this thread who is Aries ); he clearly wrote he HAD IN PAST through his hands hundreds of german helmets painted black or tan or green ( NOT that HE STILL HAS hundrest of it ) - PAST - HE HAD not HE HAS.
He clearly state that now he has few examples of those tan helmets ( if remember well he wrote 5 or 7 ) and that's all but as far as I see you trying to make from him a giant dealer who trying to fool everyone around make a BIG profit - I don't think that anyone would bought those tan helmets for more than they are worth today ( which around 250 euro ).
By seeing this whole tread as ginat conspirancy and by making Aries a giant future profiter IMO you trying to discredit this whole thread ( in your perspective only ) as total bull****.
I apricated a lot a work of all those who contributed to this thread with their knowledge, photos and informations ( which you did not at all ).

IMO this are and will be nothing but very late war helmets which at some point, probably wartime, were refurbished for future use bu all branches ( I don't think it was meant for SS use only but for other formations also ).

I had once only one of those tan helmets more than 10 year ago and everything was good ( from shell, to pins, liner and chinstrap and IMO paint also ).

[NickG]

I looked at the Czechoslovakian decal tan over-spray helmet on helmet-walhalla Doug. Good stuff
Very interesting contribution from that Slovakian member on this mystery, lifting the veil on their true origin and time period
Can we re-post here for more comments?

So these come in 2 shades of light color (green/tan).... So perhaps a war time production shade true RAL ( meaning still possibly a war time refurb job) and the later more pea colored Czech version (post war continuation of refurbs?)
Why would 2 shades otherwise exist ? One more yellow Dark Yellow = Dunkelgelb, the other more light green (Czech pea green)
Czechs trying to color match a German contract? and ALL to be exported, but that did not happen?
In other words the door is not entirely shut on these automatically being all post war done, hence the 2 shades of color that exist
and some partially refurb'd others fully, or in your opinion is that wishful thinking at this point?

link here:

http://www.walhalla.se/topic/46116-f...aligned/page-7


.

[90th Light]

How do you know this is "fact"? It has been rumored to have been in the "same location" as other items. There is nothing concrete that proves the location of where these helmets originate from.

If I missed the FACTUAL part please re-post it. Proper documentation of the actual where house and its SS affiliation is required. Thus far I dont recall reading anything that factually supports the proposed theory.

A proper checks & balance system should be in place PRIOR to posting.

As proven with Aries many posts ago....he had a motive to start this thread, and I believe that was to sell helmets. Nothing more really needs to be said, as this thread is nothing more than fluff to that end alone.

I did not say this was direct proof, I stated more than once it was circumstantial and as such quite admissible as well as having a bearing on the outcome.

The only check and balance needed would be the understanding between direct verses circumstantial.

Who is trying to sell what helmets where ? You keep banging on about this. What are you talking about ???

[90th Light]

Chris with respect then you do have a dog in this to prove these are SS helmets. That alone casts theory into doubt as you will bend whatever evidence you find as factual and supporting your desired outcome to the theory. That is not open research I am afraid.

There is no "fact" or "discovery" that supports these as being German or SS.

Your comments on if the Israelis would or would not wear German helmets are your opinion and are purely emotive. Your subjective viewpoint on the Israeli governments stance, based on your emotional viewpoint of the subject matter. Hardly scientific or factual.

But then facts are being called facts without them actually being facts in this thread.

Hearsay based evidence that these were depot found with SS clothing. Hearsay based evidence that these were seen with the Star of David on them for sale in the 60s in NYC. Israel bought German weapons and planes and contracted to train their paratroops in Czechoslovakia in 1948. But they refuse to wear a German helmet because you say they "would have been" upset. Nevermind using guns that bore the mark of the genocide. Again, whatever works to make this real?

I would suggest you both join GHW2 and read the same thread on this subject matter where a Czech member just posted these same helmets, underneath the refurb tan paint are markings of Czech military. That sort of blows the old SS theory right out of the water one would think but I am sure you guys will find something to make that nonexistant.

So now on top of explaining QVL helmets, 2 colors of factory tan paint, mystery domestamps, you now have to explain those helmets and his knowledge of them as being postwar Czech refurbs. And if the Czechs refurbed them not for their miltary, then whose?

Like I said, I am not pro or con here. But if your going to try to prove something it has to be credible and despite your opinion that it is, to me and many others thus far I am afraid is not.

Cheers and again with respect,

Doug

Doug,

sorry my helmet is not for sale even if these are proved to be SS beyond doubt. I have no dog in this fight that way. If you do not believe me go and have a look at how much stuff I have ever sold on the estand. My collection will most likely be trashed or burnt given the way my family feel about this stuff. I kid you not, some has already been destroyed.

No, the bone in this that interests me is the history of it all. I have had the helmet for years and the real story behind these has always intrigued me. I did mot pay much for it but I love the condition and all the stamps on the inside of the leather of the liner plus it still had its original chinstrap. However, as I have said it will be eventually be dumped in a land fill.

Well if you are so certain the Israeli government would have no problem with their troops historically wearing German helmets. Why not going ask them. They have already had WAF investigated as a political association so they will know what you are part of. Here is your chance for "real" research rather than "open" research. What ever "open research" is ???

My helmet has only one paint coat and that is the sand/ tan/ brown RAL paint under discussion so there is no way there are any stamps under the paint.

The rest of what you state either does not apply to my helmet or I will check when I have it in hand.

The following facts still remain in place

1/ RAL sand/ tan / brown paint used by German during WW2

2/ Helmets found in CZ where a SS distribution depot was also located

3/ Other hoards of SS tropical uniforms and other uniform items found

4/ SS soldiers wore a sand/ tan / brown steel helmet during WW2 in an even uncamo pattern without a SS rune shield on the side ( so did LW & other Wehrmacht/ party forces)

5/ Extensive use of SS tropical uniform items, Wehrmacht tropical & other uniform items at the end of WW2 by CZ resistance & partisan forces.

Can you please sum up the post war case,

Chris

p.s. perhaps "open research" is carried out at open universities

[90th Light]

Wait a minute, I have just found it

"Open research is research conducted in the spirit of free and open source software. Much like open source schemes that are built around a source code that is made public, the central theme of open research is to make clear accounts of the methodology freely available via the internet, along with any data or results extracted or derived from them. This permits a massively distributed collaboration, and one in which anyone may participate at any level of the project.

If the research is scientific in nature, it is frequently referred to as open science.[1][2] Open research can also include social sciences, the humanities, mathematics, engineering and medicine"


Looks like this thread might be full of open research in more ways than one

Chris

[NickG]

That's true Chris ....all avenues must be looked at for an open research..hence my (for some I guess over-zealous) postings of many facts and ideas.
I just want to get to the bottom of this! Perhaps too over-enthusiastically for some, but provocation, pushing the envelope a little bit can lead to good clues
and even better counter arguments! A tactic!
_____________________________

This is what I wrote on helmet-Walhalla, the parallel thread on this topic where that Czech decal helmet surfaced...(now added here!!!);

I have no vested interest in these helmets. I dont own a big pile of these (not even one actually). I was just trying to find out what the deal is on these.
What the real story is, not the Egypt connection explanation (those were Czech VZ53 helmets. That's how the Egypt fable started...So I wanted the real story....WIth my Czech contacts, vet account(s) and bring back examples (albeit few) this all make me wonder, so I wanted to find out. That pile of very light helmets that I showed on WAF includes Romanian helmets in a VERY light color pre 1945. I knew about the Italian helmets also coming in this color...That is kind of interesting to me.

This Czech decal example is good proof of the contrary (not war time or at least not exclusively war time) ! Good stuff!
You'll note it is an overpaint, not a full refurb based on the dome color but still post war painted in this color.
With perseverance we CAN come to a conclusion. Some can claim its WW2 paint that was used, (Color wise) but it proves without doubt that these helmets
(or at least this overpaint Czech decal one) certainly got manipulated AFTER the war!
_________________________

I'll go ahead and re-post Radovan's helmets (from Walhalla) here for the sake of educating ourselves further on these mystery helmets.
Credit goes to as tagged!
First off an M42, probably CKL 64 he states, this one of course an overpaint (and textured) and would have been given the thumbs up as an original by many no doubt,
had it not had this (post war) Czech decal UNDER the paint!! ?????
Good stuff Kangaroo! (I have sent a thank you message on Walhalla as its a great contribution! )

[NickG]

Czechoslovakian roundel appearing UNDER the tan paint, applied on German Grau continental paint

[NickG]

and Radovan's second helmet...
M40 Q66,semi-gloss tan paint, rivets MSS 44, the liner fits pretty tight inside the shell. Chinstrap marked RBNr.0/1151/0005

It is a complete stripped non-textured repaint with the war time RBNr chin strap which has been property stamped CZ army in 1946 + army lion.
The pins are even later =1944! So not Polizei Div Greece 1943 deployment scenario theory! (but there still was a Sudfront in 1944 of course)
That chinstrap could have been added I guess, certainly war time and post war CZ stamped... I have no knowledge of these helmets being adopted by the Czech military...
but perhaps kept as strategic reserves (moth balled) or intended for their border guards but not used...but why not in Czechoslovakian olive paint if refurbed
post war you may wonder?

With these 2 helmets some more food for thought!!! Thumbs up to the Walhalla parrallel thread on this topic!
Again a big thanks to Slovak collector Radovan for his contribution over there, now shared here!

Fire away!! (with your thoughts/comments)

[Mr. Hollywood]

No they did NOT "take" what they could...all mixed up...Nein and definitely no German.
They were supplied uniformly with (in chronological order) these types ONLY;
(not a rag tag mix from whomever wherever!)

- British MkI (WW2 surplus)...= mid-late 40's
- US M1 helmets (WW2 surplus)= late40's-50's
- French M51 helmets = mid 50's (US style copied by the French in the 50's) to supplement the US helmets, same appearance!
but also supplied their military police with ;
- Polish Wz50 helmets (actually captured from the Egyptians and reissued...so yes those were technically "taken" I guess!)
Those Egyptian used Soviet style helmets from Poland supplemented the Egyptian contract Czech made soviet helmets btw)

Forget the Israel connection! (canceled contract or not...German helmets found in NYC surplus store with star of David...?? Please!!!)

NickG

This is an example of what DougB was referring too. You have made definitive statements as fact, which are actually supposition.

Reading this reply it is even more obvious that you only agree with what you chose, or best fits your theory. You keep claiming to "only want the truth", but I don't believe that.

I see that you have joined and posted on the other site. After reading the one there, then revisiting this thread do you see the differences?

NickG just call it quits on this one as its gone further that it needs to go. You are not qualified as a researcher and it's showing.