Aahh nevermind…..
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Last edited by bigschuss; 12-28-2014, 10:01 PM. -
Man, the tone of this thread has become increasingly arrogant, condescending, and borderline absurd. What a downer, as I was truly enjoying it. But the last 10 or 12 pages or so?
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Yes K pots for Kevlar, I get that...Originally posted by bigschuss View Post
See link on the " Fritz" genesis... but lets focus on DunkelGelb pots shall we? not on vocabulary or verbiage issues!
Stay on topic! (now you erased your comment...oh well...stand corrected...)
Lets focus on these WW2 lids!
http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot....enesis-of.html
From wikipedia:
The PASGT helmet was also, but less commonly, known by its wearers as the "Fritz" helmet, for its striking resemblance to the Stahlhelm helmet, which was the standard helmet used by the German military forces in the First and Second World War.
.Last edited by NickG; 12-28-2014, 10:08 PM.Comment
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Did you not bring it up as evidence citing the stigma of the German helmet? You cited this to disprove the Israeli contract connection. Are you forgetting that? Or are you having trouble keeping track of your own conversation?Originally posted by NickG View Post
Stay on topic.
Again….arrogant, condescending…and absurd.
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This is not even an Israeli site...and its not even a true German helmet...but it is what some perceive it is...That is clear!
Read the title.... Now that's stigma to me!
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=104x1436185
We collectors don't associate German helmets with the Nazi regime...its just German Military hardware...
On the other hand people that don't collect or people that experienced the holocaust, look at such things with a different view...
with different glasses! (lenses)! That is clear! (and people that dont collect dont even know what a waffenamt mark is...
they will tell you right away with no hesitation what a "nazi" helmet looks like...! (coal scuttle shape) so they will immediately associate that
with the 3rd Reich..iconic look!...not even realizing that it is a much earlier WW1 design!)
With that said, again no way the Israeli's would consider adopting something like that, at least not that close after WW2. Again the Israeli cancellation story is unrealistic to me... because of the stigma (again look at this link which discusses K-pots!)
but I wholeheartedly agree the the Czechs were supplying German hardware to them. Absolutely! With that technology you can win a war but with a German helmet, you just "look" like a German....(or as some might put it, look like a Nazi) NEIN, No way!
Hope I am clearer now...dont want to be perceived as an arrogant "Know it all" who is one sided...I am open to ALL scenarios....eager to listen and learn! Just sharing my pov on this Israel stahlhelm consideration idea! Not a realistic scenario...That's all....!
Lets keep it constructive. A lot has been unearthed thus far on this thread! The pros and cons! Lets keep it up and the tone friendly,
as I am also enjoying this thread and theories that are thrown out there! !
Last edited by NickG; 12-28-2014, 11:26 PM.Comment
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Btw as a side note, even the Germans discuss their shape helmet and camo patterns on forums which might make them look more like
Waffen SS...Stigma?
Well to some ....Yes! (early camo pattern BW jump helmet with camo pattern designed specifically not to look too much like WW2 German SS)
This excerpt from a German forum...Of course the German army continued wearing stahlshelms after WW2...
This design from the late 60's early 70's (one of the first BW camos, when camo was not side spread yet...so relatively close after WW2,
so they were EXTRA careful! With later flecktarn it became less of an issue (camo became much more wide spread with all nations,
as it was much later after the war I guess....(Russian Spetznas special forces even adopting a very close copy of German SS camo!
but now I am deviating!)
Anyway can you imagine Israeli's in the late 1940's considering these? NS = Nazi socialist period (or Third Reich)
To me that idea is dead!
BUT BY ALL MEANS LETS KEEP DIGGING!
Waffen-SS?
Die FschJg in den 70´ern trugen diesen Tarnbezug zum Sprungdienst ohne Probleme mit den Vorgetzen zu bekommen!
Das finde ich jetzt doch ein bißchen weit hergeholt.
Amöbentarn ist schließlich eines der 1. Tarnmuster der Bundeswehr.
zu der Zeit hat man sehr wohl darauf geachtet, dass Ähnlichkeiten zur ehemaligen NS-Organisationen nicht aufkamen.
Ich halte dieses Tarnmuster schon für legitim, da es aus der Bundeswehr hervorgegangen ist!Last edited by NickG; 12-28-2014, 11:36 PM.Comment
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OK I will spell it out;Originally posted by DougB View Post
The Israels wanted to buy German WW2 weapons after the war ended.
Did they want to buy WW2 German helmets at the same time ?
The Greek communist KKE & DSE wanted to buy German WW2 weapons after the war ended. Did they want to buy WW2 German helmets at the same time ?
The Indochina NVA to buy German WW2 weapons after the war ended.
Did they want to buy WW2 German helmets at the same time ?
The Forest Brothers wanted to buy German WW2 weapons after the war ended. Did they want to buy WW2 German helmets at the same time ?
The answer in all 4 cases is probably a big "no" It was the weapons they were after & needed. Helmets would be well down the list of priority.
Yet all 4 groups used WW2 weapons from the CZ in varying degrees, These were acquired directly by buying them or indirectly via smuggling through a third party.
There is no proof Israel even wanted German WW2 helmets from the CZ let alone had a shipment cancelled or put on hold. We do not even know if such a helmet was legal in Israel in 1948. One can only imagine the horror of someone who survived the camps or fought as a partisan upon seeing soldiers wearing helmets of the German Polizei or Einsatzgruppen.
Same situation for the Greek Democratic DSE & Communist KKE in their civil war 1946,
ChrisComment
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"Probably" You have no proof to make this statement.Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
"One can only imagine the horror" is an emotional Hollywood film based statement more suited for the script writing room as you have nothing historically factual about that statement. It is merely your opinion.
Again Chris, you are the one with no proof these are German issued (SS) helmets.
Please explain qvl helmets with 43 dated components.
Please explain 2 colors of tan and a domestamp.
You cant.
So the point is nobody really knows, with any certainty but you and Nick write off each viewpoint except the German (SS) one as being the only logical one.
Ive read or seen nothing from either of you that makes it a reality.
Sorry but thin circumstantial evidence does not make these German helmets for the SS in Greece.
Just my opinion,
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I dont know what your getting at with the comment "Oh the horror". The swastika was the unmistakable symbol of the regime. If you cant understand that I cant help you further sorry. That it is defaced on occasion (not on my MG34 however) is a testament to that. The German helmet was merely a piece of equipment and again by your logic why did the Jews in the Warsaw uprising use them?Originally posted by NickG View Post
I do not know if they ordered any or not by Israel, but you cannot use the terms "probably" and condescending terms like "oh the horror" and expect to be viewed as pragmatic or objective in this thread.
Statements like "highy unlikely" are now being used as convenience by you but if someone says "highly unlikely" they are SS we are treated to postwar re-enactor pics and black and white pics and supposition and theory.
You cant have it both ways Nick and Chris. That is my problem with where this thread has gone. Long has it ceased to be objective and a useful learning tool.
So, in closing, it is "highly unlikely" that these are contract rebuilds for the Waffen SS. They "probably" are not. "One can only imagine" the huge pain in the ass that would have been logistically when troops could simply overpaint their own helmets with readily available paint like the DAK did and every German soldier did for the theater in which they served. "Probably" the fact that qvl helmets with 43 dated components are in this mix proves this moreso that heresay from someone who knows someone who 70 years later recalls this as fact, coupled with re-enactor photos. "It is highly unlikely" a German helmet factory would produce a helemt with 2 different coats of tan paint and then domestamp only a mere handful.
Until you can clearly show otherwise with concrete proof that these are German (SS) helmets, you have to look at both sides of the "probably" "maybe" "may have been" "highly unlikely" and "one can only imagine" coin.
And you guys are not, sorry (and with respect.)Comment
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GHW2 post # 104 by a 40 year collector with a near photographic memory on helmets is worth a read. "DAK" painted Israeli surplus German helmets, with the Star of David painted on the front.
When Jules talks about a helmet he has seen, I listen. Nobody knows and remembers helmets like him. Nobody.Comment
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The Warsaw uprising Jews used German helmets and German SS smocks etc...because that was all they had... They had NO choice!Originally posted by DougB View Post
That's not even a comparison...
The Israeli army had choices and obviously did NOT choose the iconic "Nazi" stahlhelm for good reason.
Did they choose German arms WITH swastikas, and German eagles! YES, NOT always completely removed, NOT always defaced...That IS a fact...
On all internal parts the waffen amt swastikas were not even removed at all for the most part...so much for 100% purification.
just like the fact that the Israel Army did NOT choose German helmets (for good reason!)
That IS an appearance issue...
On the other hand a mark 1/16th of an inch (2mm) is obviously NOT an appearance issue!!! That IS obvious.
"Nazi" helmets ARE an appearance issue! That IS clear!
Now while that is settled, please review this link from a renown author on the subject!
http://www.cruffler.com/review-January-01.html
The author of this piece on an Israeli Mauser (7.62 NATO rechambered round) states clearly:
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The only Nazi marking showing any evidence of an attempt at obliteration is the firing proof. Given the plethora of additional German World War II markings, it is our surmise that this has more to do with indicating that the original proof was no longer applicable, than an attempt to ideologically "purify" the rifle
in the manner of the Soviet obliteration of Czarist property on Mosin-Nagant rifles...
__________________________________________________ __
Again it was a NON ISSUE such miniscule markings! Don't try to defend it like the Swastika is always a bigger issue (than a helmet...)
of course it is, but on a flag, on something truly visible! On a weapon if it really WAS an issue you would NOT see these markings to begin with...
The entire eagle would gave been machined off...but that did NOT happen. Norwegian weapons, Dutch weapons ex-wehrmacht all had such markings as I stated already...Norway had MG34's WITH nazi eagles until 2001!!!
K98 rifles and MG34's were NOT 100% "cleansed", NOT "denazified" 100%. Not "Purified" 100% whatever you want to call it!
That is a fact of life....but many did have the swastika defaced, I agree...
Ask an Israeli vet, he probably would not even notice or remember these birds with intact or defaced swazis...but ask him if he would wear a German Stahlhelm, I highly doubt that (outside of the desperate Ghetto uprising battles of course)
The Israel contract idea is a non starter for me...but I am open to other suggestions! I do want to get to the bottom of this and the WAF member that stated with out hesitation that these were Israeli destined stahlhelms did not furnish ANY proof to back that up. That is also a fact!
Probably again lazy research linking German weapons, German airplanes with German helmets...(sounds like the Egyptian fable to me!)
The presense of a "qvl" late war code on some of these helmets (not seen that actually) does make this mystery an even bigger mystery!
Let's press on and find out more! !
Last edited by NickG; 12-29-2014, 01:33 AM.Comment
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Doug, he said his friend saw them
"Doug, they did wear German helmets. I have heard of Afrika Korps tan helmets having blue Stars of David painted on the front. There was a surplus store in NYC in the early sixties that had some.My friend saw them.Jules L "
Not really anything factual.
Let's take the SS issue thing out of the equation .
I think the real debate is this.
The helmets seem to be one of the following:
Postwar refurbished helmets using 100% original parts for future use by a still unknown entity
Wartime refurbished helmets using 100% original parts and possible postwar use by a still unknown enity
Wartime refurbished helmets possibly ordnance tan painted for possible tropical use with a large stock remaining unissued , but some possibly issued Without unrefutable photographic evidence.
So everything on both sides of the argument was still is and getting hypothetical , some with merit and some without. I really don't think this topic should go away because one party bullies the other party into submission. I also don't think we should chase our tails.
One way or the other if you like the helmets or not they are a part of history and good research interests some.Comment
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Totally agree Doug. I've been watching this thread over the past six months, with morbid curiosity.
Frankly, I don't care one way or the other, as I've no 'dog in the fight' - which may be at the core of the debate: Vested interest.
Piaget would tell us to suspend emotion, and make our decisions on logic.
To-date, I've seen nothing I consider evidential, proving these helmets as original SS examples. I've seen a bunch of hyperbole, inference, and speculation. In my philosophy, factual premise should lead to proving that these helmets are original; contrary to it being the burden of the community to prove that they're not.
We've reached points in similar past threads where we just agree to disagree and folks are certainly free to believe what makes them feel better. Seems to apply here.
Originally posted by DougB View PostComment
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To feed your "morbid curiosity" Blacksmith, this picture taken in the Protektorat 1945...
Darker helmets (yellow arrows) next to the light ones...The tricolor decal helmet would be in continental gray-green of course!
Even some Romanian helmets received what appears to be Dunkelgelb!(green arrows)
(and some Luftschutz blue also...)Last edited by NickG; 12-29-2014, 02:09 AM.Comment
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The Israelis took what was available. The Egyptians used Spitfires and the Israelis modified ME-109's, for example. There is no logic in say in they might not have used German helmets if they were readily available.Originally posted by DougB View Post
d3b41b218eee1d618b5b490e166a8d11.jpgComment
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