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**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by NARVIK1940 View Post

The Israelis took what was available. The Egyptians used Spitfires and the Israelis modified ME-109's, for example. There is no logic in say in they might not have used German helmets if they were readily available.

No they did NOT "take" what they could...all mixed up...Nein and definitely no German.
They were supplied uniformly with (in chronological order) these types ONLY;
(not a rag tag mix from whomever wherever!)

- British MkI (WW2 surplus)...= mid-late 40's
- US M1 helmets (WW2 surplus)= late40's-50's
- French M51 helmets = mid 50's (US style copied by the French in the 50's) to supplement the US helmets, same appearance!
but also supplied their military police with ;
- Polish Wz50 helmets (actually captured from the Egyptians and reissued...so yes those were technically "taken" I guess!)
Those Egyptian used Soviet style helmets from Poland supplemented the Egyptian contract Czech made soviet helmets btw)

Forget the Israel connection! (canceled contract or not...German helmets found in NYC surplus store with star of David...?? Please!!!)

**Dennis S** · 12-29-2014, 02:32 AM

You guys are 100 % correct it must be proved that the helmets are 100% wartime
Refurbished .

Most of the Evidence for the helmets being 100% original is presented in my opinion not circumstantial , but coincidental. Not saying impossible, but you have not proved it.

The anti argument on the other hand is much hearsay and without factual basis either at this point. Especially in the postwar put together for other enity use argument.

The technical part, others never seeing a helmet refurbished and reissued in this form has some merit though.

The deflection part is the part that killing me and I am not writing about this with anyone in mind, but in general, As an observer on both sides. I see when presented with a question or argument . Some deflect it with a question or argue in another direction with a remark or off handed ridicule . I am seeing this more with the guys against the helmets that have dug their feet in because they have believed this for years.

Nick, I don't think that last photo is a bingo as the photo seems overexposed as the only helmets that really look dark are ones that would be that dark luftshutz deep blue or possibly police black ones . Someone with an in depth knowledge of photography might be able to shed some light. Were luftshutz rolled bead helmets ever issued in a light green I don't know much about them. That one helmet on the top of the pile is dark but what color really I don't know.

Also the argument that the Israelis or Egyptians never wore the helmets is why they may have remained in the Czech Republic as they were not accepted. So for me no barking dog yet .

I want to hear the fat lady sing one way or the other.

Keep digging guys

**90th Light** · 12-29-2014, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

"Probably" You have no proof to make this statement.

"One can only imagine the horror" is an emotional Hollywood film based statement more suited for the script writing room as you have nothing historically factual about that statement. It is merely your opinion.

Again Chris, you are the one with no proof these are German issued (SS) helmets.

Please explain qvl helmets with 43 dated components.
Please explain 2 colors of tan and a domestamp.

You cant.

So the point is nobody really knows, with any certainty but you and Nick write off each viewpoint except the German (SS) one as being the only logical one.

Ive read or seen nothing from either of you that makes it a reality.

Sorry but thin circumstantial evidence does not make these German helmets for the SS in Greece.

Just my opinion,
Doug

Doug,

this is what I stated in post number 584;

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

It is good point about Israeli use of German weapons from the CZ in 1948 and I agree that does pose a circumstantial connection.

But lets also consider the full spectrum of possibilities

The problem with all these wars wanting refurbished German helmets from the CZ is that we have absolutely no proof what so ever that the helmets were put together for these conflicts or were intended to go there.

i.e. as much proof exists for the cancellation of an export order to Israel, Greece or Indochina as there does for Egypt,

Chris

Thus I have as much proof that Israel was not interested in buying German WW2 helmets in 1948 as you have proof that they wanted to. However if you can bring something objective in the form of direct proof then please do so.

I am not going to debate the horror of the Holocaust on this thread. Except to say that when I say "One can only imagine the horror", it certainly is not based on any Hollywood movie. It is based on what real people who really had to face it told me. I can only quote my father, "when you have seen how low people can go, you never want to remember that again as long as you live"

The WW2 theory & possible SS connection has more direct & circumstantial evidence than any other at this stage. But hey if you or someone else can bring some post war facts to the table then that would be great and hopefully you will solve the puzzle for us all,

Chris

**Blacksmith Life** · 12-29-2014, 04:01 AM

I guess I'm not smart enough to contribute value in this discussion, as I see this photo as being proof of nothing other than there was a stack of helmets at some point, that was a mix of countries, colors, combat, and civil. A black and white photo is just that - offering only shades of gray from which to guess / imagine color. I'm no forensic photographic analyst, but I wouldn't say whether those helmets were gray, green, blue, or orange, as they would all take on a gray shade. Then factor in hue, saturation, direct / indirect light, film exposure, age of photo, etc, etc, AND etc, and I don't think it slakes any curiosity for proof; or, if it was intended to, for that matter.

Not trying to be provacative, I just would expect the collecting community to need a level of proof beyond what's been offered. It's possible that it doesn't exist. As much as most folks may pine for a real SS helmet, I don't think these helmets fill that gap. At least they don't for me, but heck, what do I know? I'm no expert on anything, much less this.

I take opinions on what's legit in the SS helmet family from Doug, Kelly, Samir, and a few other folks (in no particular order).

I am always interested to learn more, and this research and discussion is doing that.

Thanks for the photo.

Originally posted by NickG View Post

To feed your "morbid curiosity" Blacksmith, this picture taken in the Protektorat 1945...
Darker helmets (yellow arrows) next to the light ones...The tricolor decal helmet would be in continental gray-green of course!
Even some Romanian helmets received what appears to be Dunkelgelb!(green arrows)
(and some Luftschutz blue also...)

**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Blacksmith Life View Post

I am always interested to learn more, and this research and discussion is doing that.

Thanks for the photo.

Thanks!

The quest for answers continues!
I already illustrated the war time use of SS tropical gear by the Prague resistance fighters in 1945, but that of course continued post war,
as there was so much of it available.

The Czechs in 1945 organized border guard units which were also responsible for internal security against pro-German (pro Nazi) movements which still existed. (especially on the western side I imagine "Sudetenland"....)
Emergency regiment 1 NB, began taking shape in the early summer of 1945. The regiment itself was drawn up from the newly adopted young and politically qualified people, when, however, the places commanders were with former Members with gendarmerie, police, financial guard, or the post-war army officers. The regiment at the time of creation was constituted by 12 rot and read total of about 1,500 members.

This fighting formation was created as a response to growing reports of various increasing groups composed of former SS and Hitler Youth members, which, in particular in the northern and Northwest Bohemia caused problems so Emergency regiment 1 NB was deployed against such terrorist groups. It is for this reason they were trained to guard the western borders. Emergency regiment 1 NB was fully organized in 1946.

The members PP 1 NB (Emergency Regiment) were dressed mostly in uniforms of the Waffen SS . These uniforms are often mistakenly identified as DAK uniforms because of the color. PP units uniform look was paramount but became a struggle with apparent postwar shortage of everything, even Czech khaki. (hence the adoption of German stocks).
It is the same as with other accessories , such as belts, shoes, the case for weapons. Mostly German...It can be said with certainty that the only unifying feature of their overall look was a sandy color (SS) blouse and/or shirt and the PP 1 NB unit patch on the left sleeve.

(loosely translated from the Czech language using a translation program, credit: club1938 Habersbirk )

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:25 PM

Impression in SS tropical (Sudfront), gear was abundant to uniformly dress a full borderguard regiment!!!
In the winter they would wear Italian Camo SS parkas from the same depots!

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:29 PM

Here's a period picture of such troops in SS sahariana tunics from the captured depot installations...
Not been able to find such a tan helmet for these troops (yet)....(but refurbished for them perhaps in 1945-46???)
Just checking ALL avenues (outside of Israeli or Egyptian weak fables of course)

Of interest of course are the (laceless SS pattern) tropical high boots worn by one the border guard troops!!!
Again loads and loads of SS Sudfront gear came out of the Prague depot installations (auf Deutsch: 4 lager)!
but did the helmets???

Attached Files

**DougB** · 12-29-2014, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

That's not even a comparison...

The Israeli army had choices and obviously did NOT choose the iconic "Nazi" stahlhelm for good reason.

just like the fact that the Israel Army did NOT choose German helmets (for good reason!

That IS an appearance issue...

"Nazi" helmets ARE an appearance issue! That IS clear!

Now while that is settled

NIck, see this is where the thread blows up. You reserve the right to say when things are settled in this thread. You say what is a fact and what is not. Nobody else can have an opinion.

Show a statement from an official that clearly says Israeli military and paramilitary and seciurity forces in 1948 did not buy German helmets, in particular because they "looked Nazi".

It just seems to me and alot of others that In your mind this thread exists only for 1 reason and that is to prove these are German (SS) helmets. Period.

It is my opinion, which I can stand upon as much as you can yours, that if the Israeli military/paramilitary/security forces had no problems using weapons of the Germans, adorned with proof marks bearing the symbol of their genocide, and being trained in former protectorate lands, that they would have no problem using a German helmet if there was no other choice, like the Warsaw Pact uprising Jews did. Prove me wrong. You cannot.

So for that reason you call the facts facts and settle what you say is settled.

This is a one way discussion only I am afraid, from my viewpoint.

So for that reason I have to say without any problem that there is clearly an agenda here beyond the historical.

Be it money, be it ego, be it "I just want to be right" at the expense of other issues (like qvl helmets) I don't know, but that is what this is, or appears to be.

Cheers and with respect

Doug

**DougB** · 12-29-2014, 02:45 PM

>>Thus I have as much proof that Israel was not interested in buying German WW2 helmets in 1948 as you have proof that they wanted to. <<

That is my point. You have no proof. Neither do I. I never said I did. But you and Nick carry on like you do and it is now near-factual that these are German (SS) helmets. There is even a poll...

>>However if you can bring something objective in the form of direct proof then please do so. <<

I have tried to be as objective as you and NIck but only your opinions and thin evidence if you want to call it that, matters. Still, no explanation for qvl helmets, no explanation for 2 coats of two different coats of tan paint and a mystery domestamp. Still, no reply on that but for asking 4 times. No response.

>>I am not going to debate the horror of the Holocaust on this thread. Except to say that when I say "One can only imagine the horror", it certainly is not based on any Hollywood movie. It is based on what real people who really had to face it told me. I can only quote my father, "when you have seen how low people can go, you never want to remember that again as long as you live" <<

Your the one who brought it up and as you say above, it is based on your opinion and it is emotionally driven statement as Hollywood is regardless what your father saw. Emotionally charged argumenets have no place in this discussion and your opinion on them matters not, sorry.

>>The WW2 theory & possible SS connection has more direct & circumstantial evidence than any other at this stage.<<

In your opinion, again you and Nick are setting the agenda and using evidence to suit it. Qvl helmets. Please. Unexplainable domestamps. Please. And 2 coats of paint. Please. No orders. No nothing other than some BW images that show nothing to prove your theory.

Feel free to believe in the theory. I am open to it, but you guys have successfully derailed the thread from a theoretical discussion to that of controlling the agenda, controlling what is a fact and what is plausible.

>>But hey if you or someone else can bring some post war facts to the table then that would be great and hopefully you will solve the puzzle for us all, <<

Chris, its not my theory to debunk. Its your guys theory to prove.

Cheers and with respect

Doug

**DougB** · 12-29-2014, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

You guys are 100 % correct it must be proved that the helmets are 100% wartime
Refurbished .

Most of the Evidence for the helmets being 100% original is presented in my opinion not circumstantial , but coincidental. Not saying impossible, but you have not proved it.

The anti argument on the other hand is much hearsay and without factual basis either at this point. Especially in the postwar put together for other enity use argument.

The technical part, others never seeing a helmet refurbished and reissued in this form has some merit though.

The deflection part is the part that killing me and I am not writing about this with anyone in mind, but in general, As an observer on both sides. I see when presented with a question or argument . Some deflect it with a question or argue in another direction with a remark or off handed ridicule . I am seeing this more with the guys against the helmets that have dug their feet in because they have believed this for years.

Nick, I don't think that last photo is a bingo as the photo seems overexposed as the only helmets that really look dark are ones that would be that dark luftshutz deep blue or possibly police black ones . Someone with an in depth knowledge of photography might be able to shed some light. Were luftshutz rolled bead helmets ever issued in a light green I don't know much about them. That one helmet on the top of the pile is dark but what color really I don't know.

Also the argument that the Israelis or Egyptians never wore the helmets is why they may have remained in the Czech Republic as they were not accepted. So for me no barking dog yet .

I want to hear the fat lady sing one way or the other.

Keep digging guys

Dennis, I am not pro- or con. I am against facts being made from nothing and theory becoming fact. That is what is happening in this thread now.

Regarding Jules statement, give him a call and talk helmets for an hour. You will see what I mean.

And if Nick can bring up hearsay, so can others.

Cheers

Doug

**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:54 PM

Same borderguards in SS shariana's again 1 with SS tropical boots...

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-29-2014, 02:57 PM

The examples of all this SS tropical gear in the CZ does NOT proof that the helmets are intended for SS tropical use. I fully agree!!! I get that!!!
I am just trying to find something conclusive (digging further as Dennis stated!) and while I am at it, sharing interesting images of units
and gear that probably very few people outside of CZ are aware of...(have seen before...)

Maybe these helmets were intended for these borderguards use AFTER the war??...That's all! (so very early post war refurbished after all!)
They certainly liked to use all this SS tan stuff that was laying around !!! (another Sahariana example here!)
_________________________________
A vet recounted: (again translated)

Emergency regiment 1 NB was created in summer 1945. commanders were mostly officers and army officers former gendarmerie. The reason for the establishment of that unit was primarily activity Nazi terrorist groups "wehrwolf" (werewolves), Sections compiled by the majority of the former SS and Hitler Youth members who have been trained to carry out terrorist end of the war, sabotage and diverzních action on exempted territory.

Members PP 1 NB obtained at the time a specific gear ; uniforms, helmets and weapons. Gear was taken from stock and German "Afrikakorps" (
(he means tropical SS of course) and from Soviet army officers obtained VZ1 machine-guns, PPsH41 R.
The sleeve badges from the security services varied, our designation badge : emergency regiment 1 NB.
View of the tasks regiment and his need for rapid deployment through its members intense training so that they no longer end of July 1945 they took up their positions in the north and north-west frontier, approximately on the arc Trutnov - Usti nad Labem - Karlovy Vary - Tachov. Nature services these units was not an emergency. The main task was secure guarding the border.

In the autumn 1945 come into the borderland and army units, which they fill in the gaps between the security forces and to help move the Germans. Gradually, as the situation consolidate, the regiment units increasingly being used directly for the protection state boundaries, which in November 1945 performed by the services and army officers financial guards.
The Czechoslovakian border 12 rot regiment, however, with the total number nezabezpečilo 1 500 members. For this reason they were early in the year 1946 contingency regiment Unit 1 NB reorganised and arise from them border services SNB-9600.
The new report of the services has been focused on 1 July 1946 and to ensure that the continuous surveillance state boundaries as to the total length of 2 116 km.

Attached Files

cet.-jaroslav-hosek-7.-rota-tachov.jpg (48.4 KB, 124 views)

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-29-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

The examples of all this SS tropical gear in the CZ does NOT proof that the helmets are intended for SS tropical use. I fully agree!!! I get that!!!
I am just trying to find something conclusive (digging further as Dennis stated!) and while I am at it, sharing interesting images of units
and gear that probably very few people outside of CZ are aware of...(have seen before...)

Maybe these helmets were intended for these borderguards use AFTER the war??...That's all! (so very early post war refurbished after all!)
They certainly liked to use all this SS tan stuff that was laying around !!! (another Sahariana example here!)

Of course they did use the material lying around , that's evident to all Nick.
The helmet's being painted for post war use or wartime use is the debate, the clothing will not change that.

**DougB** · 12-29-2014, 03:25 PM

NIck you can show the entire Czech population in SS Saharias and boots. None of it has anything to do with helmets. None of it connects any dots to factory tan German (SS) helmets. None of it. Honestly I feel like we are constantly shown clothing and post war reenactor photos over and over and over again and that it is a fait accompli. We are being subjected to the Chinese water torture test, of postwar clothing pictures and modern reenactor images, and being told see, see, "maybe", "probably", "could be", "possibly".

It is time to get serious and get off that merry go round.

QVL helmets. Please.

2 colors of tan paint. Please.

Mystery domestamp. Please.

The questions continue to go unanswered that simply debunk your theory.

Have you read the 2 volume divisional history In Good Faith, on SS Polizei? Does it say anything in there about a mass equipment exchange in Cz for Greek occupation duties?

With respect

Doug

**BROBS** · 12-29-2014, 03:28 PM

I have to agree that the argument is going nowhere without more proof either way.

I have zero dog in this fight and even if the helmets turned out to be legit SS issue, I don't want one.

Showing photos and theorizing is all well and good but proves nothing and as Doug states, simply muddies up this discussion on Helmets.

-Brian

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