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**DougB** · 12-28-2014, 01:51 PM

NIck your showing a postwar photo on the left and a different helmet on the right that does not show any sign of yellow or tan on the interior. That is why I give up. It is a one way discussion. I am not here to play chess with you or anyone else. But please you cannot say "no way" to Israelis wearing a German helmet based on principle.

Tell me, if the Israeli's were so principled as to not order any German helmets why did they not remove the swastika from their MG34's? It is a simple 1 second removal.

You cannot say that there is "no way" the Israeli's would ever wear a German helmet based on principle when the sign of the German soldier was clearly the Swastika and NOT a helmet. They left swastika's intact. Therefore I assume they would have had no problem wearing a German helmet if the need clearly called for it.

Again, your accepting only theories and discussion that fit what you want to believe.

**90th Light** · 12-28-2014, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Because Chris maybe they used other helmets....

Your rationale makes no sense and serves no point.

Nothing wrong with my "rationale" Doug,

it is called research for the facts. Here is a detailed account of what Israel purchased off the CZ in 1948. Sorry no helmets in the order.

Perhaps the "Military Museum in Prague" could confirm this for you.

The point is that several countries were buying WW2 German weapons from June 1945 onwards but there is no evidence of WW2 German helmets being purchased or even any demand for them. Sure if they got left behind by the Germans like in Norway then they got used but beyond that ?

Chris

The leaders of the Yishuv (Jewish community in Palestine), already in the summer of 1947, intended to purchase arms and sent Dr. Moshe Sneh (the Chief of the European Branch of the Jewish Agency, a leading member of the centrist General Zionist Party who later moved far leftward and became head of the Israeli Communist Party) to Prague in order to improve Jewish defenses. He was surprised by the sympathy towards Zionism and by the interest in arms export on the side of the Czech Government. Sneh met with the Deputy Foreign Minister Vladimir Clementis, who succeeded the non-Communist and definitely pro-Zionist Jan Masaryk. Sneh and Clementis discussed the possibility of Czech arms provisions for the Jewish state and the Czechs gave their approval,

In January, 1948 Jewish representatives were sent by Ben-Gurion to meet with General Ludvik Svoboda, the Minister of National Defense, and sign the first contract for Czech military aid. Four transport routes were used to Palestine all via Communist countries; a) the Northern route: via Poland and the Baltic Sea, b) the Southern route: via Hungary, Yugoslavia and the Adriatic Sea, c) via Hungary, Romania and the Black Sea, d) by air, via Yugoslavia to Palestine.

At first, a "Skymaster" plane chartered from the U.S. to help in ferrying weapons to Palestine from Europe was forced by the FBI to return to the USA. By the end of May the Israeli Army (IDF) had absorbed about 20,000 Czech rifles, 2,800 machine-guns and over 27 million rounds of ammunition. Two weeks later an additional 10,000 rifles, 1,800 machine-guns and 20 million rounds of ammunition arrived. One Czech-Israeli project that alarmed the Western intelligence was the, so called, Czech Brigade, a unit composed of Jewish veterans of "Free Czechoslovakia", which fought with the British Army during WWII. The Brigade began training in August 1948 at four bases in Czechoslovakia.

Czech assistance to Israel's military strength comprised a) small arms, b) 84 airplanes –– the outdated Czech built Avia S.199s, Spitfires and Messerschmidts that played a major role in the demoralization of enemy troops; c) military training and technical maintenance. On January 7, 1949, the Israeli air-force, consisting of several Spitfires and Czech built Messerschmidt Bf-109 fighters (transferred secretly from Czech bases to Israel), shot down five British-piloted Spitfires flying for the Egyptian air-force over the Sinai desert causing a major diplomatic embarrassment for the British government.

According to British reports, based on informants within the Czech Government, the total Czech dollar income from export of arms and military services to the Middle East in 1948 was over $28 million, and Israel received 85% of this amount. As late as 1951, Czech Spitfires continued to arrive in Israel by ship from the Polish port of Gydiniya-Gdansk (Danzig). Since May, 2005 the Military Museum in Prague has displayed a special exhibition on the Czech aid to Israel in 1948.

**Hinkle** · 12-28-2014, 01:54 PM

Are the helmets on the pictures below original? I mean the paint? To judge the interior color based on these pictures is quite a challenge.

**francis006** · 12-28-2014, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

We're just investigating ALL possibilities...sorry some have a more open mind than others...I don't believe late war marked QVL were found totally refurbished in this RAL DUnkel gelb color but maybe I missed something.
To my knowledge most are actually ET's and some HKP,CKL,NS, SE,QVS marked...

ET & Ckl - Eisenhuttenwerk, Thale YES

Q - Quist, Esslingen

EF - Emaillerwerk AG, Fulda YES

NS - Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke, Schwerte YES

SE & HKP - Sachsische Emaillerwerk, Lauter YES

Why this large variety, because they are rebuilds and for the most part receiving 1943 parts which still leads me to believe a refurb happened in 1943...
Some do have much earlier chin straps but many were found with leather rot on the chin straps (damp storage) so those were replace (one example in the thread has a 1941 chin strap) or most sold actually lacking chin straps or czech ones added...and liners RBNr types...

If Egyptian or Israeli, why not 1944 or 1945 parts? Can somebody check theirs?

qvl / bvl do exist in this "greenish" tan ... BTW different from the tan color used in SS or Lw clothing

Somewhere it's becoming comical to ask for pics because it's so totaly logical for helmets never delivered for any reasons to never see one on someone head , no ?

BTW the same for war time pics , I don't hear you asking for one to accredit your theory ? sure this thread wouldn't have lasted 41 pages

so either we ask for pics on both sides , post and war time , and stop the thread now as they are none so far or we work with what we have and study ALL the possibilities with impartiality

Photos above are from militaria magazine and equipment from HSC , a French militaria dealer . The helmet is from the Czech batch

**bubble** · 12-28-2014, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Awesome war time picture of such light colored helmets! They even have German HBT tunics and LW buckles, K98's

Some might claim the skirts look dark...so automatic believe these are overpaints...not wanting to believe in this war time possibility PERIOD...
but look at this H&C image for comparison!

Here is the picture in a much higher resolution ;-)

http://i.imgur.com/ltL40MM.jpg

**NickG** · 12-28-2014, 02:30 PM

They indeed liked tan colored helmets...these revolutionary guard (resistance) troops in 1945...
So all helmets captured from Germans in tan color (field applied?) in down town Prague?
or taken off a shelf in a depot "as is" (in bulk) you may wonder???

Looks like they (RG) also obtained a massive amount of unissued tropical headgear (from that same depot in 1945).
SS M41 tropical caps (from the Sahariana kit)
This links tan helmets to that depot for me!

Much bigger image of these light coored helmets here in the link:

http://www.planstichodove.cz/fotoalb...945-005.-.html

Attached Files

**bubble** · 12-28-2014, 02:38 PM

Here I found some discussions about these yellow helmets. And all CZ owners wonder why they are still considered post-war.. Many CZ owners claim (not verified) that these yellow helmets own since the end of the war!

For example this 6 days old thread: http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?...mm=1&xb=4&vd=1

**NickG** · 12-28-2014, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

You cannot say that there is "no way" the Israeli's would ever wear a German helmet based on principle when the sign of the German soldier was clearly the Swastika and NOT a helmet. They left swastika's intact. Therefore I assume they would have had no problem wearing a German helmet if the need clearly called for it.

Again, your accepting only theories and discussion that fit what you want to believe.

Come on now...comparing proof markings on weapons and wearing a certain style helmet is of course comparing apples to pears BIG TIME...
To illustrate this: the Dutch military (and other armies) used many German weapons post war with waffen ambt markings totally intact...
like war time Wehrmacht Browning Hi-powers, phased out in the in the 1980's with birdies on them all over the place! (standard officer's side-arm)
(I have seen them and served in their military during the Cold war)...
They did NOT remove those markings either (and it would damage the bluing, the metal finish....), only adding their property serial #'s !
and some would need reading glasses just to see those marks....(the miniscule swastika on the miniscule eagle!)
A helmet on the other hand is a part of a uniform and can be distinguished from far away....Such a comparison is of course totally flawed
and frankly silly!

I think the possible canceled Israeli connection has some possibilities but still very slim... I just don't see how a nation of (often) Holocaust survivors would consider donning a German helmet...German weapons, Yes, top notch technology, those win a war...not a steel lid!
That's is a symbol of evil and would bring back memories...open up old wounds...No way. So we're back to square 1: Why do these exist?

**Schwerpunkt** · 12-28-2014, 03:36 PM

The iconic meaning of the German stahmhelm is seriously overestimated in this topic. For us collectors it is iconic yes but for people of the period it was just a steel helmet , a commodity for countries in turmoil after WW2.

It is clear that holocaust survivors thought nothing of using NAZI hardware , why would a simple head protection be any different.
Nazism is an ideology not a fashion fad.

**NickG** · 12-28-2014, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Deathshead View Post

The iconic meaning of the German stahmhelm is seriously overestimated in this topic. For us collectors it is iconic yes but for people of the period it was just a steel helmet , a commodity for countries in turmoil after WW2.

It is clear that holocaust survivors thought nothing of using NAZI hardware , why would a simple head protection be any different.
Nazism is an ideology not a fashion fad.

Try convincing a Israeli Holocaust survivor that!

So now we have Revoluční guard members wearing tan helmets and also tan M41 (SS) field caps..Is that just a big coincidence?
or did they raid a warehouse?
(where sahariana uniforms were also taken and worn in the Prague while manning the resistance barricades, as I already illustrated)
Just trying to connect the dots here...

**kevinpre45** · 12-28-2014, 03:49 PM

Tan cz 1945

OK!
The resistance fighters broke into the warehouse took apart helmets repainted tan then put back together!(after paint dried of course)!
Kevin

**NickG** · 12-28-2014, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post

OK!
The resistance fighters broke into the warehouse took apart helmets repainted tan then put back together!(after paint dried of course)!
Kevin

That's funny.

Here another RG member who dressed himself in minty unissued Sahariana gear from that SS depot! Note M41 SS field caps.

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-28-2014, 04:19 PM

Same RG troops (from same sequence with tan helmets)

bigger pictures here in links: (June 30th, 1945)...

http://www.planstichodove.cz/fotoalb...945-003.-.html

http://www.planstichodove.cz/fotoalb....1945-004.html

Attached Files

**gadaru_kanaru** · 12-28-2014, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

We're just investigating ALL possibilities...sorry some have a more open mind than others...I don't believe late war marked QVL were found totally refurbished in this RAL DUnkel gelb color but maybe I missed something.

I have only one helmet of the type being discussed in this thread and it's a qvl.

I guess it begs the question are we 100 percent certain qvl/bvl are extremely late war manufacture?

**GAMS1** · 12-28-2014, 04:35 PM

Great work Bubble and Nick !
Finally some pictures showing those helmets worn in 45 in Prag ...not later in Egypt !
Ok on the "wrong"side , worn by the resistance people but finally a real "proof",showing the Süd Front logistic situation existing !
I said right at the beginning of this thread that the first tan helmet i found was an exchange with an old CS resistance member in Prag in 87 .
He was wearing it in May 45, with some more pieces of mixed german+CS equipments and kept his helmet as a souvenir .
87 was before the big lot came on the market in 91 but i personnally never had any questions on those helmets being pre 45 ? it's not only an impression or feelings , it's a fact, i think ?
I don't think they were especially for the WSS but why not ? regarding the "value" , i don't think it will have the"value" of a WSS helmet but at least the same "value"like a normal late war green M42 or a refurbished M40 .
The market will then decide , Angebot und Nachfrage , offer and demand !
The discussion on these helmets brought many informations on this period , not only on these helmets but on the immediate postwar german surplus material criss crossing in the whole world .
Nick

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