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**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

So why not look at it this way; authentic WW2 until somebody shows some facts, like post war needs and/or post war contract (to make these with 100% war time parts)

I am not saying that these dots automatically make the Czech stahlhelm cache war time...it is and remains still very circumstantial but its building a case, and frankly a better case than 100% post war...even the poll shows that!
So lets try to prove these are post war instead of trying to proof these are war time...black and white photos and vet memories are not solid proof. A post war contract is solid proof.
We need to look at it that way...So find a post war reason why these exist (in these quantities).
Hopefully Bubble can dig in the Czech archives for us (1946-1952 period)

That is what I was trying to say with my "innocent until proven guilty" comment!

Who would have contracts showing these helmets were post war painted? Who would have contracts showing MG-34/42 Lafettes were post war painted?? Show me the contract for the German helmet factory showing an order for tan camo helmets?

It seems logical to me that surplus German helmets would have been repainted "en masse" as well for use,just like the Lafettes.

This thread will just go on and on I am sure.

Glenn

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Who would have contracts showing these helmets were post war painted? Who would have contracts showing MG-34/42 Lafettes were post war painted?? Show me the contract for the German helmet factory showing an order for tan camo helmets?

It seems logical to me that surplus German helmets would have been repainted "en masse" as well for use,just like the Lafettes.

This thread will just go on and on I am sure.

Glenn

Post war approach (like I recommended), yes lets look at Czech adopted German equipment and what color they utilized. I am only familiar with Norwegian and Yugo repaint lafettes only...
(MG34/42 with distinctly different color green paint)

So seeking proof that this tan paint color was indeed adopted by the Czech army, but than that brings up another question: if post war repainted for their use, it was not done for their military...
(not even for their strategic reserves use and unutilized) since these lids lack the Czechoslovakian lion armed forces property stamps! and this color is not civilian either...
(they used black, so repainted over tan!)...
None of these German-Czech stahlhelm turned up with these crossed swords markings (image shown a M53 helmet of course) so that is a dead end...
They did turn up with German dome stamps but to the naysayers that's a dead-end too,
because such stamps can easily be faked...lazy excuse of course!

Attached Files

czech2.jpg (62.6 KB, 162 views)

**Fred S** · 12-23-2014, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by bubble View Post

Czechoslovak civil defense (CO = Civilní obrana) at the time of 40-60s use only black helmets - as well as volunteer firefighters (and very rare example with green letters "CO") either old German or Czechoslovak helmets.
I've never seen any brown CZ CO helmet - in any collections or on any photos from that time .. always black or green and in 70/80-90s only white blue or orange but never brown ..

But I can not exclude that these brown helmets could be specifically used for example in some chemical plants 'etc..) only..

Hi,

As a lot of members I read with a lot of interest this thread: As pointed out by some members, we can't be bet that we'll get a definitive answer one day.

I have no dog in the fight, nor ten tan helmets for sale (I don't even own one, altough I had one in hands back in 1991 or 1992) but the following pics (close ups from post 333 of the current thread) are interesting: Gaz mask canister and filter painted in...tan, same tan? Seems than tan was "fashionable" in CZ, not only black.Pointed out on another forum by a member who have really good eyes

Attached Files

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Post war approach (like I recommended), yes lets look at Czech adopted German equipment and what color they utilized. I am only familiar with Norwegian and Yugo repaint lafettes only...
(MG34/42 with distinctly different color green paint)

So seeking proof that this tan paint color was indeed adopted by the Czech army, but than that brings up another question: if post war repainted for their use, it was not done for their military...
(not even for their strategic reserves use and unutilized) since these lids lack the Czechoslovakian lion armed forces property stamps! and this color is not civilian either...
(they used black, so repainted over tan!)...
None of these German-Czech stahlhelm turned up with these crossed swords markings (image shown a M53 helmet of course) so that is a dead end...
They did turn up with German dome stamps but to the naysayers that's a dead-end too,
because such stamps can easily be faked...lazy excuse of course!

Who said these tan helmets were intended for Czech issue (I suspect they were) or even painted by them? What I am trying to say is that some Countries used captured German surplus and repainted them. Maybe they were painted by the Czechs, maybe they were painted elsewhere and sent to Czechoslovakia and they were found in storage there,I don't know.

You seem 100% convinced that they are original WW2 German W-SS issue helmets,a pretty broad statement considering there could be several different scenarios as to why they were ever painted like this in the first place.

Glenn

**Dennis S** · 12-23-2014, 02:54 PM

Interesting photos of the displays. Seems like the gas can was painted twice , once tan and then a drab

**francis006** · 12-23-2014, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by fred s View Post

hi,

as a lot of members i read with a lot of interest this thread: As pointed out by some members, we can't be bet that we'll get a definitive answer one day.

I have no dog in the fight, nor ten tan helmets for sale (i don't even own one, altough i had one in hands back in 1991 or 1992) but the following pics (close ups from post 333 of the current thread) are interesting: Gaz mask canister and filter painted in...tan, same tan? Seems than tan was "fashionable" in cz, not only black.pointed out on another forum by a member who have really good eyes

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Fred S View Post

Hi,

As a lot of members I read with a lot of interest this thread: As pointed out by some members, we can't be bet that we'll get a definitive answer one day.

I have no dog in the fight, nor ten tan helmets for sale (I don't even own one, altough I had one in hands back in 1991 or 1992) but the following pics (close ups from post 333 of the current thread) are interesting: Gaz mask canister and filter painted in...tan, same tan? Seems than tan was "fashionable" in CZ, not only black.Pointed out on another forum by a member who have really good eyes

How very interesting..

Thanks for posting.

Glenn

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

You seem 100% convinced that they are original WW2 German W-SS issue helmets,a pretty broad statement considering there could be several different scenarios as to why they were ever painted like this in the first place.

Glenn

No firm statement (cant really prove it), just a strong suspicion based on what my Czech contacts told me...(and the SS vet account) that's all...
Maybe some documentation will turn up! (proving me right or wrong, the purpose of this thread...and I like to stir things up, be provocative so we get more participation
and hopefully more input! so I am throwing stuff out there so it could generate some good leads....some food for thought really...
For the most part the tropical SS is usually photographed like this...(pith or soft cover...) His kit came from that CZ depot most likely...A stahlhelm supplementing his gear in this color,
as claimed by the vet statement, is not an enormous stretch to me...That's all....but lets make an effort and find out!

Attached Files

tropica ss.jpg (44.2 KB, 154 views)

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Dennis S View Post

Interesting photos of the displays. Seems like the gas can was painted twice , once tan and then a drab

Good observation Dennis!
Lets see if we can find a good picture of one! but still no helmets in this color were ever utilized by their emergency services...
So these mystery helmets perhaps originally painted in that tan color post war, but rejected and repainted in black?
Plausible, but why so many I wonder? if they were indeed intended for local civil use after all?

Found one! Its more olive to me...

Attached Files

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

No firm statement (cant really prove it), just a strong suspicion based on what my Czech contacts told me...(and the SS vet account) that's all...
Maybe some documentation will turn up! (proving me right or wrong, the purpose of this thread...
and I am throwing stuff out there so it could generate some good leads....
For the most part the tropical SS is usually photographed like this...(pith or soft cover...) His kit came from that CZ depot most likely...A stahlhelm supplementing his gear in this color,
as claimed by the vet statement, is not an enormous stretch to me...That's all....but lets find out!

I have seen many helmets that were sprayed tan and in some cases the "interior apron only" was painted the same colour as the exterior. If wearing such a helmet in a period photo it may appear as if the entire inside of the helmet was the same as the exterior but that was not the case.

So the period photos of soldiers wearing tan camo helmets means nothing.

Glenn

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

So these mystery helmets perhaps originally painted in that tan color post war, but rejected and repainted in black?

I think painted and never used because they were German helmets (A Nazi connection)

Just my opinion.

Glenn

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

I think painted and never used because they were German helmets (A Nazi connection)

Just my opinion.

Glenn

But they were used! in black...so perhaps post war refurbished for the Czech military, but rejected as they looked to "Nazi" for their armed forces..
and reallocated for emergency-fire services and repainted black...Could be. Perhaps there is documentation showing the rejection! but I wonder why spend the money and the effort
and than have them rejected...(by their military) ...and 3000 doesn't sound like much for military use and they lack the crossed swords...
but that could be because of the rejection? in the end not adopted and not stamped?

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-23-2014, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

But they were used! in black...so perhaps post war refurbished for the Czech military, but rejected as they looked to "Nazi" for their armed forces..
and reallocated for emergency-fire services and repainted black...Could be. Perhaps there is documentation showing the rejection! but I wonder why spend the money and the effort
and than have them rejected...(by their military) ...and 3000 doesn't sound like much for military use and they lack the crossed swords...
but that could be because of the rejection? at the end not adopted and not stamped?

Don't know Nick,maybe a change of heart by the Government and the helmets were not accepted... I can see how a Country would rather not have any ties to Nazi Germany.

Glenn

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 05:39 PM

Here's a great link (for those who understand German) on RAL 7028 which is Dunkelgelb...and came in 2 shades (no doubt because of shortages, ersatz materials in 1944)

RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb Ausgabe 1944 (= version 1944)
Die neue Farbe hieß einfach nur RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb und war bis Spätsommer / Herbst 1944 bei der Neulackierung in Verwendung.
Sie ist etwas dunkler und weniger Gelb als das Dunkelgelb nach Muster, hat einen ganz leichten Roststich. (which these helmets have!)
Der historisch korrekte Name lautet schlichtweg RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb.

More here:

http://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kk...dunkelgelb.php

The German RAL color is always more sand tone and somewhat rust colored in shade, never green, olive green...(like Warsaw pact equipment and helmets...)

and attached is what is considered Warsaw pact green as used by Yugo army

(Testors model paint company color chip...)

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-23-2014, 05:49 PM

another example of Warsaw pact green (even that color can vary...but should be uniform in shade, just like a NSN number/code (Nato Stock Number)
2nd image is early Yugoslav National Army! Note olive color lafette MG42
Czechoslovakian Emergency Civil Services might have had (hand-me-down) equipment in that color too...(more olive)

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