My new DAK helmets

[Aries22]

2

[Schwerpunkt]

What I don't like is that each example that 'could' 'perhaps' 'maybe' fit this theory is smacked on the table as a new piece of evidence.

Understand that this is a puzzle that with luck you can solve within a year and dedicating your future to it.

Catalog , observe and determine. Day in day out.

[NickG]

What I don't like is that each example that 'could' 'perhaps' 'maybe' fit this theory is smacked on the table as a new piece of evidence.

Understand that this is a puzzle that with luck you can solve within a year and dedicating your future to it.

Catalog , observe and determine. Day in day out.

Yes all are theories at this point and some fit the bill much better than others...I actually want to be disproven...I just want certainty...The Czech sources being wrong,
vet account inaccurate...Maybe there is a canceled post war Ethiopian contract somewhere...This was metioned in a French or Italian thread,...don't remember which one now...
I love such mysteries...Member Bubble from Prague is going to delve into the archives after the Holidays he wrote! Lets hope he can uncover something substantial!
Maybe someday anther photo album will surface but not in Greece, instead showing the issuance of such kit, including a tan stahlhelm in Prague!
Time will tell !

This photo shows SS (Polizei Div) troops in Budapest in 1944...They came back from Greece (through Prague) in 1944 according to the vet statement, immediately
redeplying in the east. This soldier still wearing his Tropical (Greek) Sahariana kit...So was he wounded? on leave? missed the reissuance of continental kit?,
not transiting through Prague for some reason , while reuniting with his unit?
Sure looks out of place in this tan uniform but they traveled in it and they all received their kit and turned in their kit outside of their theatre of operation (Mediterranean),
that is clear, which explains such tan colored helmets being found in such a location...Prague area depot (along with pith helmets, saharianas etc...) A stretch???

[Aries22]

What I don't like is that each example that 'could' 'perhaps' 'maybe' fit this theory is smacked on the table as a new piece of evidence.

Understand that this is a puzzle that with luck you can solve within a year and dedicating your future to it.

Catalog , observe and determine. Day in day out.

If you and anothers see my last photos, there is no more place for 'could' 'perhaps' 'maybe' this is clear evidence about war made colour....mytery is for who, when and why and so on....

[Schwerpunkt]

If you and anothers see my last photos, there is no more place for 'could' 'perhaps' 'maybe' this is clear evidence about war made colour....mytery is for who, when and why and so on....

Well as I said evidence for me constitutes a multitude of examples , otherwise we can throw Walter's silver biker helmet into the mix as well

And I will add that one of the two that started this topic is a HKP shell. So unless there's a dome stamp there there's discrepancy that will need explanation.

[NickG]

The Czech Depot -Greece deployment connection is clear...(Ersatz und Ausbildung)...much clearer that the alleged Czech-Egypt connection or explanation!!
In April 1943 The Polizei Division began converting into a Panzergrenadier-Division and some of its elements were sent west to training grounds in Poland and Czechoslovakia. As 1943 wore on, the division was shifted around Leningrad to meet Soviet incursions. In the fall, more units were withdrawn for conversion, and then some of them were sent to Greece for garrison duties. At one point in time, the division was in three places; most of it in northern Russia near Leningrad, a part in southern Russia near Tscherkassy, and the converting elements in Greece. Eventually, the division was united in Greece in April 1944. There, it welcomed its Sturmgeschutz battalion.

So the Division was reunited as a whole in Greece...that kind of strength would mean the need for a ton of uniformly painted (reconditioned helmets! (factory done) Now we have a REASON!

This particular Sturmgeschutz in Athens does appear to be manned by Wehrmacht (Heer crew...breast eagle... )! but is shows such colored helmets being the norm!!

[Aries22]

The Czech Depot -Greece deployment connection is clear...(Ersatz und Ausbildung)...much clearer that the alleged Czech-Egypt connection or explanation!!
In April 1943 The Polizei Division began converting into a Panzergrenadier-Division and some of its elements were sent west to training grounds in Poland and Czechoslovakia. As 1943 wore on, the division was shifted around Leningrad to meet Soviet incursions. In the fall, more units were withdrawn for conversion, and then some of them were sent to Greece for garrison duties. At one point in time, the division was in three places; most of it in northern Russia near Leningrad, a part in southern Russia near Tscherkassy, and the converting elements in Greece. Eventually, the division was united in Greece in April 1944. There, it welcomed its Sturmgeschutz battalion.

So the Division was reunited as a whole in Greece...that kind of strength would mean the need for a ton of uniformly painted (reconditioned helmets! (factory done) Now we have a REASON!

This particular Sturmgeschutz in Athens does appear to be manned by Wehrmacht (Heer crew...breast eagle... )! but is shows such colored helmets being the norm!!

interesting

[WalterB]

Anyway it still remains an interesting discussion! Keep the thoughts/theories, whys, why nots, pros and cons coming!

Nick, for you there is no discussion. You immediately dismiss and characterize any doubts or opposition as being part of a drone "old-school" collecting mindset. But hey, you knock yourself out declaring these helmets "authentic". You can cite improved production numbers ad nauseum (something that anyone reading about WWII history knows), but it does not support the notion of specific customization by the helmet manufacturers was undertaken to satisfy the needs of a particular unit (i.e., SS tropical units). I challenge you to find any bona fide example of helmets being issued in a color other than feldgrau.

In the end, I have not participated in this thread because it is not a topic that is of interest to me. The helmets are ugly and, notwithstanding the repeated posts and self-serving statements of "they are real!!", authenticity is highly questionable. Now we have Ares posting his helmet in some other helmet thread declaring that the helmet is authentic and linking it to this thread as evidence. The most I can say about these helmets, and I am being very generous here, is that they are a big question mark whether they are pre-1945 helmets. At the end of the day, it is about your own margin of comfort when establishing collecting standards. Some people are okay collecting question marks, and that is fine as long as they recognize that they are question marks.

[DougB]

Im not here to argue the point Aries, but your now saying this was painted twice in the factory, with 2 different colors of tan paint? Then was stamped with an acceptance stamp. On a repaint? Nick said earlier on we are not discussing repaints.

Nick, despite hearsay and circumstantial evidence, if these were factory refurbished to be tan, then why are you insistent on classifying them only for the SS-P division when clear evidence shows every branch wearing tan helmets close to this color? And why only Greece? Too many question marks to categorize these helmets as SS-Polizei division helmets.

As well, supposition is being made on black and white photos and poor color pictures.
Frank and Walter have clear points that need to be heard.

In any case, it has been an interesting read, and I agree that these may be wartime, but the thread is now going around in circles.

It was originally posted as a DAK helmet. Then it was an Egyptian contract helmet. Then a Czech depot helmet, for postwar use. Then Czech National Guard of sort. Now it is an SS Polizei helmet. The facts are this: nobody really knows what these were for.

All of these claims are being made with no concrete proof and nothing but hearsay and highly circumstantial evidence being drawn to fit the desired conclusions of those who want it to be something other than what it might be.

In any case, its been a good discussion but unless there is something more to add, I feel categorizing these as SS Polizei factory painted tropical helmets is simply not right.

And I will bet good money that these are for sale on a dealer site soon as such, for about $3000. And therein lies the problem. Unless there is hard evidence, it is very dangerous to draw firm conclusions without hard evidence.

I have 3 books coming on the history of the SS-P division in the new year, for a separate research project. I would be interested to see what they say in the books about this topic, if anything.

[NickG]

Nick, for you there is no discussion. You immediately dismiss and characterize any doubts or opposition as being part of a drone "old-school" collecting mindset. But hey, you knock yourself out declaring these helmets "authentic". You can cite improved production numbers ad nauseum (something that anyone reading about WWII history knows), but it does not support the notion of specific customization by the helmet manufacturers was undertaken to satisfy the needs of a particular unit (i.e., SS tropical units). I challenge you to find any bona fide example of helmets being issued in a color other than feldgrau.

In the end, I have not participated in this thread because it is not a topic that is of interest to me. The helmets are ugly and, notwithstanding the repeated posts and self-serving statements of "they are real!!", authenticity is highly questionable. Now we have Ares posting his helmet in some other helmet thread declaring that the helmet is authentic and linking it to this thread as evidence. The most I can say about these helmets, and I am being very generous here, is that they are a big question mark whether they are pre-1945 helmets. At the end of the day, it is about your own margin of comfort when establishing collecting standards. Some people are okay collecting question marks, and that is fine as long as they recognize that they are question marks.

Thanks, that's what we want, participants not silent readers. Agreed very unusual to have factory painted or reconditioned helmets for a certain theatre in a specific color...but the Med theatre color requirements were not seasonal, did not change (from summer to winter snow like most other theatres) where helmets went through seasonal needs, done in the field of course!). So uncommom yes but unheard of? Why? There is of course already a precedent ! But not helmet related!

Aircraft/Vehicles etc... were theatre painted (locally) to meet those area camo needs (winter camo in Russia, ambush camo in Normandy etc...same goes for helmets)
however for Africa technical issues occured such as the need for tropical filters so the ME109 was developed and manufactured specifically for the needs of that theatre (Bf-109F-4Trop) which came from Messerschmidt in a factory standard tropical RAL paint, with splotched camo to be added later in field with unit insignia.

So only later in the war (such as a factory built tropical colored Me109-trop) was equipment made specifically for that theatre in that theatre color. So why are helmets far fetched? As stated already the DAK early in the war was rushed to Africa and all (continental) equipment had to be modified locally in theatre, including vehicles and planes and they were cut off with supply issues...They had to make do with what they had...Planes on the other hand could be flown in and the "Trop" version ME 109F-4trop was introduced! Yes certainly an exception in factory desert paint...but why not a factory built/reconditioned helmet in such a color if the need was there? Not the norm of course. but the SS had the luxury to go outside of the norm with their SS-Industry activities, capable of customizing their needs UNLIKE the Heer and Luftwaffe etc...and the SS was big time into camoflage as we all know! and yes I am very open minded...
If the commander of a unit (Polizei Division) wanted helmets for use in that theatre color "turn key", ready to go, (in large volume, reference funeral photos, to make his entire unit look uniform and "spiffy" for occupation duties) and fast deployment) why not contract with SS-industry to make these available
(as opposed to ordering paint supplies at a local level...and again the vet turned it in as "sonder ausrustung" (Theatre equipment), not a standard, switching from Saharianas back to field gray after terminating his mediterranean deployment. Good discussion!

[NickG]

Btw on the German fundforum somebody discussed these helmets as "last ditch" helmets, based on seeing these in a 1945 very late war news reel...
and made in this color because it was the only color available...(late war vehicle primer paint used for camo)
Plausible too! (1943 liner pins would be left over parts, utilized much later for the assemblies...)
Who knows really? Maybe I am just too gullible with the SS vet story and tropical SS depot connection in Prague...It does make me wonder!
If we could only find the contract (work order) for the assembly of these...(war time or post war) the rest I agree is guess work!
All I am saying war time production still has a very good chance, not debunked after 460 posts! and that they're ugly is not a reason!!!
the poll seems to go in that direction....very plasible to many...The German comment ends with the words (translated) "a murky discussion"!
Indeed! Same here! Nobody really knows either way!!!...PERIOD! I agree DougB...but its always good to look at all posibilities!
__________________
Darüber zu diskutieren wird müssig sein, da ich ihn schon lange nicht mehr besitze und daher keine Bilder einstellen kann. Es war aber ein definitiv anderer Anstrich als der den man gemeinhin als "tschechisch" kennt. Bedeutend gelber und auch glänzender. Ich meine mich erinnern zu können ähnliche Helme in einer Doku aus den letzten Kriegstagen gesehen zu haben. Waren hell glänzende M.42 die von Angehörigen des letzten Aufgebots getragen wurden. Soweit man das anhand von S/W Bildern halt beurteilen konnte. Wie gesagt.... eine müssige Diskussion

[PAB]

Im not here to argue the point Aries, but your now saying this was painted twice in the factory, with 2 different colors of tan paint? Then was stamped with an acceptance stamp. On a repaint? Nick said earlier on we are not discussing repaints.

Nick, despite hearsay and circumstantial evidence, if these were factory refurbished to be tan, then why are you insistent on classifying them only for the SS-P division when clear evidence shows every branch wearing tan helmets close to this color? And why only Greece? Too many question marks to categorize these helmets as SS-Polizei division helmets.

As well, supposition is being made on black and white photos and poor color pictures.
Frank and Walter have clear points that need to be heard.

In any case, it has been an interesting read, and I agree that these may be wartime, but the thread is now going around in circles.

It was originally posted as a DAK helmet. Then it was an Egyptian contract helmet. Then a Czech depot helmet, for postwar use. Then Czech National Guard of sort. Now it is an SS Polizei helmet. The facts are this: nobody really knows what these were for.

All of these claims are being made with no concrete proof and nothing but hearsay and highly circumstantial evidence being drawn to fit the desired conclusions of those who want it to be something other than what it might be.

In any case, its been a good discussion but unless there is something more to add, I feel categorizing these as SS Polizei factory painted tropical helmets is simply not right.

And I will bet good money that these are for sale on a dealer site soon as such, for about $3000. And therein lies the problem. Unless there is hard evidence, it is very dangerous to draw firm conclusions without hard evidence.

I have 3 books coming on the history of the SS-P division in the new year, for a separate research project. I would be interested to see what they say in the books about this topic, if anything.

Well said

[Dennis S]

I remember years ago ,one of the good Guys and as far as I know a honest dealer had one or two for sale and was selling them not as tropical helmets , but later war ordnance tan helmets. As in comparison to factory ordnance tan painted metal field items such scope cans , boxes etc. I am not saying he had the skinny but I think it was his conclusion at the time. In comparison to earlier helmets sent back to the factory that we call reissues for the dark field gray treatment. I think this is more plausible then strict SS tropical issue ,but doesn't mean they could not have been diverted ,issued or proposed for them with tropical kit.

The chrome biker helmet thing is just a red herring and not really a good analogy .

If anyone is going to throw out Egyptian , postwar civil service or school crossing guard theories it should be as strong as the wartime ones.

As I said before , just from me as a sideline observer . I haven't been convinced one way or the other. Maybe the believers are chasing their tales a bit , but the antis have not brought anything to the table of substance besides more innuendo .
Will it become an expensive collectable helmet? I doubt it , but if proven wartime it might find a place on someones shelf as a representive piece or sit over a sahariani jacket.

So far no proof one way or the other , but the guys that like them are maybe being
A bit over enthusiastic, but not unplausable.

I don't see the problem trying to investigate it and having a discussion.
Certainly more interesting than the reading the mundane. If you don't like them one way or the other . I respect that , I don't like a lot of things myself.


Just my opinion ......

[NickG]

I remember years ago ,one of the good Guys and as far as I know a honest dealer had one or two for sale and was selling them not as tropical helmets , but later war ordnance tan helmets. As in comparison to factory ordnance tan painted metal field items such scope cans , boxes etc. I am not saying he had the skinny but I think it was his conclusion at the time. In comparison to earlier helmets sent back to the factory that we call reissues for the dark field gray treatment. I think this is more plausible then strict SS tropical issue ,but doesn't mean they could not have been diverted ,issued or proposed for them with tropical kit.

The chrome biker helmet thing is just a red herring and not really a good analogy .

If anyone is going to throw out Egyptian , postwar civil service or school crossing guard theories it should be as strong as the wartime ones.

As I said before , just from me as a sideline observer . I haven't been convinced one way or the other. Maybe the believers are chasing their tales a bit , but the antis have not brought anything to the table of substance besides more innuendo .
Will it become an expensive collectable helmet? I doubt it , but if proven wartime it might find a place on someones shelf as a representive piece or sit over a sahariana jacket.

So far no proof one way or the other , but the guys that like them are maybe being
A bit over enthusiastic, but not unplausable.

I don't see the problem trying to investigate it and having a discussion.
Certainly more interesting than the reading the mundane. If you don't like them one way or the other . I respect that , I don't like a lot of things myself.


Just my opinion ......

Well said! I agree on all points

I wonder if this name can be linked to a unit? Could be a clue! Schuf....esen?


Btw it looks like this thread has gotten some traction on "helmetwalhalla" after all!
but nothing concrete or groundbreaking over there either... link here:

http://www.walhalla.se/topic/46116-f...zechoslovakian



.

[NickG]

Nick, can I ask a question? Trying to follow the thread and the logic. Maybe I missed something. It seems to me that if these were a special contract that they would have all been produced war time in a single factory. I guess I would then expect them to either all have dome stamps, or none of them have stamps. Again, I do not know a lot about the process. But it seems to me that the fact that some have stamps doesn't make sense?

Thanks in advance.

Yes you missed something....you missed reading post # 429... Only a small percentage (spot checked helmets) would get such an inspector's approval dome stamp!
So these appearing on such tan helmets is 20 -25%...and out of the surviving ones its a smaller number...and many domes post war over-painted in Czech civil black!
So to me the dome stamp (now shown appearing on several examples) is a very important revelation and totally kills the post war theory! = progress!
Hope that helps! NickG