My new DAK helmets

[bubble]

Hi NickG and 90th Light: I also love all kinds of secrets and mysteries..

There are several books and many articles on this topic that I have not read yet:

For example:
Hýbl + Mráček - "Civil Defense of the CSSR" (published 1980)

or books like:
Peter Zidek + Karel Sieber - Czechoslovakia and the Middle East in 1948-1989 (Prague 2009)

or

GOMBÁR, Eduard - Czechoslovakia and Egypt in the years 1920-1970 (Czech-Arab Society, 2009)

ZÍDEK, Petr - Arms exports from Czechoslovakia to Third World countries in the years 1948-1962
(History and military, 3/2002)

etc..

All of these books are only in Czech language. I will borrow these books in public central Prague Municipal Library, of which I am a member and I will looking for any mention of "yellow helmets" there..

But not right away - I now before Christmas, I have very little time :-)

[Dennis S]

It will be a slow trek to the answer.

[NickG]

Funny, but guess what, you never know...!! The voters who say Yes German or most likely German (no other explanation possible) are in the lead thus far,
but I agree nothing is really based on anything truly solid. Just a lot of "possibles" which strengthen the other view! Cumulative circumstantial evidence has value!!!!

What the poll did establish so far is the Czech emergency service use (in tan) and any Arab export explanation are falling behind...That theory is cracking!
That explanation (even published!) or story, fable whatever you want to call it is now being doubted by poll takers...so that immediately raises the question:
why do these exist otherwise? We need to find out more, but we are definitely not there yet...actually barely starting!

I honestly don't think it was ever really investigated properly...just some lazy assumptions made, connecting the wrong dots. Dealer hearsay etc...
and the naysayers have not really made a strong case at all I feel...only mocking this attempt...Sign of weakness to me...
That is why I put in the poll thread for those who adamantly state impossible WW2 to put their reasons, their proof why not WW2? that's lacking! Silence!

but I guess the naysayers would rather remain anonymous...don't want egg on their face...or they just don't really know either! Bought into the decades old export story!
Back in those days of course limited access to proper info in the 80's 90's.. That is obvious!...Stone age, no information highway...
Well at least now we have the internet, international connections and people that can "dig" locally in Prague! Its intriguing and certainly worth another look!
Right?

That's my feeling at least and plenty of interest to get to the bottom of this once and for all. I think its worth another look...Forget the "behave like sheep" (herd)
approach, blindly following the folklore stuff! "That's what I heard"..."It was explained to me like that" (export/Egypt/post war reworks) etc...
Nothing truly solid either way so we need to make a better attempt! That's all! 58 votes thus far is also not a big number either...many sitting on the fence,
not wanting to vote (yet)...that's good and understandable. Sign of having an OPEN MIND! When I created the poll I let it have a run time of 1 year...
Who knows what we can come up with in a year!
Members like Bubble locally in Prague can be of a lot of help! (my Prague contacts are already convinced that these are war time based on all the circumstances but that's
also just a opinion, albeit an opinion from the source!)

Give it time I guess is my message! At least we have momentum and interest! Again I don't own one (primarily because these became tainted...) so I have no dog in this fight,
I just want it researched properly! and why not? Some members might be sitting on a gold mine. Its intriguing, just like those French made KM badges outside of LDO! Who knows?
Another mystery (and the pink smocks) I love a good mystery!

[Jean-Loup]

"For example, on this photo of Wehrmacht soldiers (Greece 1943-44) some helmets looks also very dark and some very light (yellow/brown?)"

That photo of the smiling partisan about to be executed was taken in Belfort, France, in late 1944. The man was actualy not executed, and was deported to a concentration camp where he died.
Regarding the helmet, posting photos of helmets with yellow paint on the exterior is completely irrelevant, as it is well recognised that large numbers of such overpainted helmets existed.

If we make the assumption that these helmets are German made late in the war, why are mdl 35 and 40 shells also included? Wouldnt it made sence for only 42 shells to be used? Or where earlier models of helmets stripped down and refurbished, as they often were: see all the ND late war repainted mdl 35's?

Regarding Greece being a hollyday theater, and no comouflaged helmets being required, I would consider this a wrong assement. I am not familiar with the Greek area, but am very familiar with the occupation of the French Riviera, that was also a "hollyday area". And any camouflaged wire helmets were used on the Riviera, paticularly wires. 50% of the helmets I have come accross from this holliday zone have some type of camo, and other local collectors have also found large numbers of camo helmets.

JL

[NickG]

"For example, on this photo of Wehrmacht soldiers (Greece 1943-44) some helmets looks also very dark and some very light (yellow/brown?)"

That photo of the smiling partisan about to be executed was taken in Belfort, France, in late 1944. The man was actualy not executed, and was deported to a concentration camp where he died.
Regarding the helmet, posting photos of helmets with yellow paint on the exterior is completely irrelevant, as it is well recognised that large numbers of such overpainted helmets existed.

If we make the assumption that these helmets are German made late in the war, why are mdl 35 and 40 shells also included? Wouldnt it made sence for only 42 shells to be used? Or where earlier models of helmets stripped down and refurbished, as they often were: see all the ND late war repainted mdl 35's?

Regarding Greece being a hollyday theater, and no comouflaged helmets being required, I would consider this a wrong assement. I am not familiar with the Greek area, but am very familiar with the occupation of the French Riviera, that was also a "hollyday area". And any camouflaged wire helmets were used on the Riviera, paticularly wires. 50% of the helmets I have come accross from this holliday zone have some type of camo, and other local collectors have also found large numbers of camo helmets.

JL

I saw that too...the execution photo is from France...FFI resistance fighter...
but that's the thing J-L...few are familiar with the Greek occupation theatre and what these guys looked like...Not many photos out there...
OK camo lids could have been worn on all fronts even quiet fronts....True!
and even if we find good photos they are still B/W so less interesting...We need some digging in Czech archives! That's the only good approach!


Here's an alternate idea: (maybe we are on the wrong path?)
Maybe these helmets were wartime refurbished for the Protectorate army ? which was going to be sent to Italy in 1944 as reenforcements ...German helmets are better to protect against friendly fire,
and showed what side they were on...
but there was resistance and this "army" (called "regierungstruppen" in German, an Axis force) was instead used/deployed only for non combat functions in Italy...trench/fortification
building, basically digging behind the lines alongside OT. (preparing the Gothic Line etc)..so no need for German looking helmets...so they just refused using them...resulting in depot queens!

Now that is an angle that was never researched, right? So a "Protektorate Regierungstruppen" contract (1944) for Italy deployment! It is a theory but a possibility also!
So these lids stayed behind in Prague! (their main depot and duty station) They insisted on using Czechoslovakian helmets... for their National identity! and insisted on a non combat role!
I doubt that any dealers or self proclaimed "helmet gods" out there ever thought of that as a possibility! Instead rushing to the convenient Egypt story (with 100% German war time parts?)

Collecting is also knowing history! I do see rifles and a helmet...but they saw no true frontline combat while in Italy as far as I know!!
This image taken in Italy in 1944 shows "Regierungstruppen" who left Prague for Italy, the official war time army of the Protektorate (Bohmen-Mahren)
Worth looking into!!! (btw if I am not mistaken their uniforms were tannish-brown too!)
I am open minded! So not Sudfront??? but still war time! Could be investigated...!!

[Dennis S]

Tan German helmet surrender on the isle of Rhodes Greece , hard to say with shadows. The sun is on their back.

[Jean-Loup]

Before this thread, I had never given any thought to these helmets. They all were either mint or artificualy worn, in other words unissued, so not interesting to me.
The fact that all are made of 100% German war time components, and have a nice German color and not some fluorenscent green communist style color does give very serious credence to these being made and assembled pre May 8 1945 by the Germans. Then again, who knows what the Czech did in 1945-46 with masses of left over German stock items, maybe they assembled them.
They remain uninteresting to me however as simple stock items. What would be great would be to find worn examples.
Army items, once they are issued, very quickly get spread about, with men being transfered, killed, wounds, captured, etc. There is still no clear evidence of one of these CZ helmets having been issued. Finding some would be very interesting.

[NickG]

I have seen that picture Dennis but thought it had to do with the Tunisian surrender...Good stuff...So in Greece after all! (at war's end...surrendering their gear)

[Dennis S]

I have to say it looks like only the inner rim is painted tan on that one.

[Dennis S]

I have to say it looks like only the inner rim is painted tan on that one.


......and this one looks like an Italian helmet as Italians loyal to the Axis were still there in 1945

[NickG]

I guess we have pretty much established that there was no Egyptian contract and the poll results now show very few believe in that theory any longer...
(it has always been an unfounded explanation, just a theory, but Czechoslovakian M53 helmet were exported to Egypt without repaint much much later in the late 50's
(Suez Canal crisis) and beyond...See post 326 example in link... and locally overpainted sand color by the Egyptian army!)

and we have established that the Czechoslovakian emergency services has always used black helmets early on...German style repainted (black over tan)
and later USSR style Czechoslovakian M53 helmets (= 2nd image),
ALL black...None have ever emerged in Dunkelgelb (RAL) color in images... So that theory is bust too!

[NickG]

Now here is an interesting image! Taken in 1945. A Prague resistance fighter
wearing full SS tropical Sahariana clothing (from the Waffen SS depot along with a German helmet!)
This uniform was not taken from a captured German soldier, no way! A German wearing tropical in down town Prague?
So the German helmet was also not taken from a German soldier either...

So now we can draw the conclusion that what he is wearing ALL came straight out of that Waffen SS depot. Unissued stocks! I have no doubt...
(just like the other images that I posted of Czech resistance fighters in tropical SS clothing, standing guard after the hostilities ended in Prague).

That looks like a tan helmet to me...!! (part of the Sahariana SS tropical kit).
Again this image is from Prague where these helmets came from!
Still circumstantial but strengthens the Dunkelgelb war time Südfront theory (much better than Egypt or Emergency service explanations!!!)

[trevor87bikes]

Impossible to say in that last pic ..could be overpaint ..Looks patchy ....in the pic of the rhodes Greece if you zoom in the pile at the back one of them looks tan inside

[NickG]

Impossible to say in that last pic ..could be overpaint ..Looks patchy ....in the pic of the rhodes Greece if you zoom in the pile at the back one of them looks tan inside

Could be battle scars...scuffed up. I know its not really proof but it is intriguing and interesting to find a resistance fighter in full SS Sahariana with a light colored helmet,
making the assumption that all his (tropical) kit was liberated from the same warehouse!

I am repeating the other Prague tropical pictures here since the thread has become so long... That SS tropical kit was stored there is undeniable, a clear fact,
so why not such tan colored helmets? Head gear of all styles would have been kept there for issuance... prior to deployment to "other climates" (= sonderausrustung)
The resistance fighters depicted after the battle was over...(ceremonial) So no more need for stalhhelms! Switching to SS tropical piths, also stored in Prague at that same depot.

So if SS piths (no shields compare with post 363) and tropical SS field caps (latter used post war by Czech police btw) were stored there, why not also helmets? (in tropical colors)...
I don't think its a big leap at all!
Everything was stored there for various theatres...also the curly toed "Lapplander" style SS ski boots (sonderausrusting) as used by the 6th SS GJ Div and some Estonian units!
(again Sahariana shirts + tunics, helmets, SS boots, all used by Czechoslovakian resistance fighters after pilfering the warehouse )

and I also bet that none of the dealers in the late 80's early 90's knew any of this stuff...so unable to connect the dots properly...Came from the East..Czech surplus...

Like I said before, ample examples, Italian camo parkas, everything in unissued condition. Any brand spanking new looking original Sahariana came from there no doubt!
So why can't the helmets also be new looking...(and accepted as original?) That's one of the reasons why these helmets were doubted all along...the false export story
+ brand new looking state (unissued condition)...so too good to be true and immediately written off as post war re-works...(with original liner pins in tan dated 1943)
(1) no need and (2) no money for refurbishing... for that to be true! and than put black paint on top of tan? 2 coats all done post war?
The tunics and parkas came of course in the same minty condition, but those were accepted with open arms by the collectors community...not tainted...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=207606


.

[bigschuss]

So now we can draw the conclusion that what he is wearing ALL came straight out of that Waffen SS depot. Unissued stocks! I have no doubt...

Nick, I have been reading every word of this thread and I have become more open minded about the pedigree of these helmets because if it. However, I think a fair amount of restraint might be in order. Drawing final conclusions based on that single black and white pic is, IMHO, a bit of stretch....jumping to conclusions. And I think even you know this when you posted in your last message....

I know its not really proof but it is intriguing and interesting

You seem to be waivering between "Giddy up!" and "Whoa!"

You done a great job elucidating your position and of showcasing the evidence. I think you may end up tainting it all by drawing conclusions for the masses. There is an old saying in science that when researchers want to see something so badly they will see it...."I wouldn't have seen it if I had not believed it."

I then become skeptical of the motivation and rationale for your tireless and dogged determination to make us "all see the light" and draw the same conclusions you are drawing. For example, I find myself wondering if you have a pallet of these helmets locked away in storage somewhere?

I applaud your efforts. I really do. I have learned much.