My new DAK helmets

[NickG]

I do not know definitely.. these helmets were in my opinion, painted in yellow color before the May 1945.

That is what I am hearing from the current Czech collector's community... Post internet days...Not pre-internet time when these got dumped on the market and collectors were at the time really clueless, making assumptions...and still sticking to those convenient "export" explanations, without a real smoking gun (real proof) that these are "NOT" war time assembled like this...
Other than the comment that the shade is slightly off for it to be war time ordnance paint...(not taking in account age, exposure, UV, low quality unstable war time primer paint etc..)

The reasoning can go both ways...but again why do these exist?

This one was sent to me by another member today...the storage rings are interesting since it is a ground find... perhaps really bad quality ersatz paint and even with short term storage the paint had issues? He feels its an overpaint...some LW blue showing....better images to follow! (so perhaps an "apples to pears" comparison)...but shows bad paint quality...an ersatz ordnance primer!
but anyway it does prove further that ordnance tan colored helmets were worn outside of North Africa-DAK...like those SS troops in Greece were wearing in 1944,
but the question remains unanswered: are those overpaints or refurbished, ground up tan helmets...Still very intriguing...The Polizei Division vet seems to remember his Prague depot obtained helmet was entirely tan...not a field expedient job done in-theatre!
but I agree it's not solid proof...I agree with the naysayers... but to close this thread would be a shame...
Feedback is coming in from all corners of the collecting community! The Czech collector opinions and NZ vet accounts (from Italy front) could have good value connecting these dots further!
Let's try harder!

[Schwerpunkt]

Agreed! Who didn't?...many countries were rebuilding their armies post WW2, others creating armies post de-colonization, independence (Indonesia)...
but specifically, THESE helmets...None have turned up in foreign army inventories as far as I know...and 100% use of German parts (and paint?)

No specific info on these? On a French forum thread somebody claimed these were destined for Ethiopia...but never sent...and that's fine..
Lots of war time left-overs ended up overseas...MG34's in the Israeli Army etc... but were these made specifically for an export order post war or war time made for German use,
but the majority never leaving the warehouse(s)?
That's the question... seeking view points from your country specifically, based on internet findings... Perhaps period images from CZ? Again opinions can change...Getting to the bottom of this with conclusive info is the topic of this thread! (if we can)! It's been an interesting journey so far with back and forth opinions/arguments, but nothing conclusive, no real smoking gun...but lots of dots that do connect and make a case (that there was a need for such helmets in WW2) but still a weak one thus far!
(and tons of readers based on the count! so plenty of interest to solve this puzzle once and forever... )

Nick at least kudos from me to keep this thread alive and well moderated by yourself.

I will follow with interest but I said my piece and will digest and evaluate new info as it comes along.

I have been a part of the collecting community for a long while and from my experience we will not get to the bottom of this in one sitting.

[NickG]

Thanks!

This comment was posted on warrelics 2 years ago...discussing one...with added Czech chinstraps...other than that 100% German specs...
It goes into the reason why these were not delivered (if the Egypt link is actually factual....or just a hearsay "story" because of an arms transaction from CZ)

King Farouk was overthrown in 1952...(would a Pro British ruler have ordered "Nazi" style helmets you may wonder?
___________________________________

It is a post war refurb helmet. The shell is fine, a nice ET M40 as well as the liner and liner band. The chinstap is a postwar added one, probably Czech.

Anyway "the story behind these" seems to be ;
When the King of Egypt asked for the german helmets from the Czechs, he asked for them to be to an un issued standard, using as much un issued german hardware as possible, as it was cheap. You will find on most of the tan helmets the hardware to be all german and in good condition. As for the colour, its the Egyptian tan colour chosen, which is just slightly different to german ordnance tan...
So they are Czech postwar refurbs bound for Egypt after a deal was done with the ruler of the time. He was overthrown before the deal took place and a new deal was done with Russia instead.
After the fall of communism they hit the marked for collectors in the 80's.

There is a pretty big debate over what they were intended for though but I believe this to be the true story. (posted by Volksjager)

[Fsoq]

Nice thread that I love to follow because I think we have to keep an open mind in Militaria.
JUst my 2 cents here but I remember well when they surfaced late in the 80's or in the begining of 90's. You could buy them for about 150 euros (normal price for a standard helmet at this time) to the french dealer "HSC". He had a lot of them. The big collector who managed the LaGleize museum and who had connections anywhere in Europe and especially with HSC stated that HSC himself told him that those helmets were post war painted for a foreign country. And so he adviced me to not buy any of them.....

[GAMS1]

Strange ?
As the owner and the seller of the HSC shop always told ( even in private,not only on commercial purpose ? )
Those were 100% original and even came from WSS stocks restocked post war for the civil defence in CS ?
They used them on the WSS tropical uniforms pictures for the french magazine
Militaria in the 90's as well , until the rumours
of this Egyptian contract came out !
Which totally destroyed commercially wise on the market the "reputation"of these helmets ...
Nick

[marco wol]

Perhaps the below link is of value to this thread. Herman Göring Division presenting it self to the Reichsmarschall somewhere in Germany. All clad in new tropical uniforms. Helmets and gasmask cannisters in tan. Question is, did they paint it themselfs, or were they manufactured this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74J37RPW9_U

[Mr. Hollywood]

Last night and this morning I spoke with a couple well known dealers that were at the MAX Show in the early 1980's when the original exporter of these helmets was toting around huge cardboard boxes full of these helmets wrapped in paper selling them to other dealers.

At that time the original exporter represented them for what they are "post war refurbished helmets made for use by the Czecks.

The helmet color was chosen by the CZecks from what was available. These helmets were discovered in parts at a warehouse, and put together and painted post war.

These are not SS helmets, nor are they prewar assembled. No amount of photos, or reaching explinations will change this fact. The original exporter himself sold them to these dealers at the MAX exactly as such, no embelishments.

As far as I am concerned the debate is done.

[Fsoq]

Strange ?
As the owner and the seller of the HSC shop always told ( even in private,not only on commercial purpose ? )
Those were 100% original and even came from WSS stocks restocked post war for the civil defence in CS ?
They used them on the WSS tropical uniforms pictures for the french magazine
Militaria in the 90's as well , until the rumours
of this Egyptian contract came out !
Which totally destroyed commercially wise on the market the "reputation"of these helmets ...
Nick

Nick,
I dont have a dog in the fight. I'm just telling what someone told me.
Maybe HSC didn't want to rip off his good friend (I know they were quite close).
BTW, militaria magazines are well known to be full of very doubtful stuff and were some kind of advertisers for some french dealers

[NickG]

Last night and this morning I spoke with a couple well known dealers that were at the MAX Show in the early 1980's when the original exporter of these helmets was toting around huge cardboard boxes full of these helmets wrapped in paper selling them to other dealers.

At that time the original exporter represented them for what they are "post war refurbished helmets made for use by the Czeckoslovakians.

The helmet color was chosen by the Czechoslovakians from what was available. These helmets were discovered in parts at a warehouse, and put together and painted post war.
These are not SS helmets, nor are they prewar assembled. No amount of photos, or reaching explinations will change this fact. The original exporter himself sold them to these dealers at the MAX exactly as such, no embelishments.

As far as I am concerned the debate is done.

Well its not an export contract... King Farouk (a pro British puppet, exiled to Monaco in 1952) would not have had his army considering the procurement of a "Nazi" type helmet
(using 1940's parlance...), with his ties to the British Crown and so close after the war's end... (Unlikely...No way to me...) Alexandria was bombed on numerous occasions by the LW...

The only explanation that remains is that these were refurbished post-war by the Czechoslovakians for their own is use??? That is the (only) explanation...???
Because some dealer (importer or exporter) was told this?
That raises the question: Why?
First of all they did not have a need for these, at least not in these quantities found, just for their emergency services?) No way! That just does not make sense!
and
it costs money .... for something that they did not need in those quantities? Plus it has a stigma!!! (German occupation)!!!

Their army very early post war was scraped together with left-over equipment...(only after the communist coup d'état did they have access to USSR material...)
EVERYTHING they used post war (1945-1951) was left overs CZ and often German WW2 , including German flight suits as coveralls it appears !
This Hetzer lacking a gun even...+ surplus German BergePanthers ! (and German Italian .camo parkas...etc...)
They used Czechoslovakian pattern helmets ONLY, until the Russian ones were phased in.
They only thing they did NOT use was German helmets as these had had a stigma, because of the war, the occupation! These would have been melted down, more value,
not refurbished and stocked, just sitting with 100% German parts!!! That just does not make sense to me...3000plus helmets were found?
Again based on the quantities it is my firm believe that this could only be for one reason: German war time use...To me that is the only logical explanation, regardless of hearsay dealer explanations/assumptions.

So I am asking again, why else do these exist ?
I don't want to beat a dead horse but I don't think the horse is dead...(based on logic)..
(the other Nick)

[NickG]

Also that begs the question:
why do images exist of Prague resistance fighters wearing tan colored helmets?
and of all places in Prague and in 1945! Coincidence?
I know images are not conclusive but they do raise questions...
especially since such helmets also exist in what appears to be used condition...
(but I guess that could be explained away by Czechoslovak Emergency services use... but did they need thousands of helmets?)
I would like to see images of these helmets used by those Civil Service units post war!

[Schwerpunkt]

Nick,
militaria magazines are well known to be full of very doubtful stuff and were some kind of advertisers for some french dealers

That is unfortunately correct and thus they make for a very unreliable source because of it.
I go again to my earlier statement of the Normandy 1944 camo book released recently (2012 I think) which also links to a French magazine and has a mix of good and bad camo's.
Don't underestimate the power of money it can also be an influencer.

[blau250]

Thank you very much to all of you for your comments and certanly great knowledge about this controversial subjet.
I have no evidence or historical files to furnish you with new details about the pre 1945 manufacture of thiese helmets. I can only give you my personal apreciations about them.
All the examples that I have hadled had a bad feeling. Original components were ok, but the paint, that paint... had not the correct texture, color, aspect as the pre 45 paints. Seems acrylical paint not oil/enamelled German WW2 ordenance tan paint. Looks like modern acrylical paint.
Germany use paints of ocuppied countries. Perhaps CZ Army use that paint and some stock were used to repaint these helmets...
Perhaps a chemical analys of this paint might give us some light on this fascinating theme.
Just my two cents.
Thank you for your contributions gents

[90th Light]

Last night and this morning I spoke with a couple well known dealers that were at the MAX Show in the early 1980's when the original exporter of these helmets was toting around huge cardboard boxes full of these helmets wrapped in paper selling them to other dealers.

At that time the original exporter represented them for what they are "post war refurbished helmets made for use by the Czecks.

The helmet color was chosen by the CZecks from what was available. These helmets were discovered in parts at a warehouse, and put together and painted post war.

These are not SS helmets, nor are they prewar assembled. No amount of photos, or reaching explinations will change this fact. The original exporter himself sold them to these dealers at the MAX exactly as such, no embelishments.

As far as I am concerned the debate is done.

Interesting, because I was shown polaroid photos of the find when the helmets were found in the CZ and they were already assembled 100%. Thus complete helmets sitting in storage in the CZ.

The examples on the bottom of the piles were all rusty as NickG has already alluded to.

I was also told the story you have presented from the USA but that is all it is, one of the stories that floated around the USA at the time in the 1980's to try an explain them when really no one knew why these helmets existed or why.

When you stop and think about it, if they assembled the helmets to send to the Max in the USA from parts. Then why were the helmets on the bottom assembled with rusty shells, corroded liner bands and dried out leather when on the other helmets on the top and middle of the piles were assembled with mint helmet shells, mint liner bands and mint leather. Seems like a lot of extra work and cost making sure the condition of all the component parts matched one another. Why not just sell them as parts at the time ?

Why use a shade of German sand/ brown/ tan "RAL 7028" paint that is not seen on an CZ made items before WW2 or made after WW2 but it is seen on items made during WW2

What is the name of this original "exporter" and these "well known" dealers ? because I suspect you mean one of the possible importers into the USA.

Some were exported fron the CZ to the Max show in the 1980's but not as parts and there was more than one USA importer. Some importers sold them else where or by other means. They imported complete helmets as found already assembled in the CZ warehouse/ storage facility.

The story presented by one importer at the time is nothing more than folklore to try and explain the unexplained and for better or worse this debate is not over,

Chris

p.s. any response from Kelly Hicks in regard to this matter ?

[trevor87bikes]

The last 2 pics posted are not imo tan based ....first pic looks like it's a camo or overpaint and second pic could be grey from that pic

[NickG]

The last 2 pics posted are not imo tan based ....first pic looks like it's a camo or overpaint and second pic could be grey from that pic

True could be overpaints I concur! but still so many questions...
again from a Czech reference below repeated again here...
_______________________

Translated from a Czech book on the Czech army 1945 to 1955 - quotes on page 53 that that Czechs did very little export postwar and a majority of that was to Yugoslavia and it ended in 1948.

Plus the book states that in 1945 there was no manufacturing and the Czech republic had to import equipment for its army from the allies . Budgets were extremely tight up until 1948
and troops even wore combinations of civilian clothes with army clothes. In a state like that no one would have been bothered to refurbish German helmets in tan.
For what reason? Why spend money on refurbishing helmets? that they did not even need in the first place for their military (and export contract seems far-fetched now)
and Emergency services did not need brand-spanking new (refurbished) helmets and certainly not in the quantities that were made available...
Again the only logical explanation is for the German war effort...Yes weird texture...late war issue with ersatz paint. It is all explainable to me!
but again I agree speculative but some very good counter arguments have been posted here (for them not being post war assembled helmets). It is an interesting discussion!